Supersize corn

DdotSpot said:

Wow, you've made QUITE a first impression with your first 11 posts...

That statement proved absolutely nothing except that all animals that have gone extinct, USED to be alive...uhh yeah...

So, just a question for you. Do you feel that the population of corn snakes has DECREASED since "we" started "catching" them? Or increased?

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I dont have any facts to support this, but I will offer this; I believe the population of captive corn snakes has dramatically increased. And I think you could imply that if we are catching wild snakes, especially gravid ones, then the wild population would be decreasing.

First:

OCFinfan said:

Keep thinking the way you do and make sure you collect all the snakes you can, because thats the only way your children or your childrens children will see one live. Ignorance must be bliss

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Then:

OCFinfan said:

And I never said people that disagree with my opinion are ignorant.

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Busted.

regards,
jazz

You dont finish your post with a derogatory comment, you start with it. I do appreciate the obvious thought that went into your post, jazz. However, all I was trying to do was state my opinion on a topic, and it quickly branched into hypotheticals, and in your instance, philosophical thoughts. I found your comparison to the deer in your area a valid point. And I thank you for stating your opinions, even though you still felt the need for name calling (troll). Yes, the corns are exponentially threatened by our destruction of their habitat, but I honestly believe that capturing wild snakes is ultimately harmful to the species in addition to the obvious perils they face every day. So, think of me how you want...I am holding true to my beliefs. I just cant figure out how a whole group of people that obviously share the same love for snakes wouldnt want to try and do what could only be beneficial to them in the long run, and that is let them be and prosper. Is there really a need to capture a wild snake when you can go to the pet store and see a hundred of them stored and racked on a shelf in tiny cages?

OCFinfan said:

I dont have any facts to support this

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That's exactly the problem here. You are telling people how they should or should not practice or enjoy their hobby, and that they are bad for doing so outside of the parameters you have arbitrarily chosen for them, without presenting any reasoning behind how it is any of your business to begin with.

First off - a statement of what I personally believe regarding wild caughts:

I don't oppose the collection of wild caught specimens in moderation. I don't personally own a wild caught, but if there was something to be gained by adding a wild caught to my collection (after proper quarantine and treatment for any parasites, of course) then I wouldn't be against it.

Potential pro's of wild caughts (if you will):
- New blood for the breeding program
- The wild caught has some characteristic or potential color/pattern morph that can be explored to bring something new to the captive population (size, color, pattern, head shape, etc.) that is considered beneficial by the person taking the wild caught
- Locality buffs
- Sentimental value such as having a corn originating from the area you are in, or as a reminder of a successful herping tour, and others.

Are all of these pro's to ME? Not really, but they all are things that are important to other people in the hobby at some point. I believe they are all valid reasons to keep a wild collected specimen in a species that is plentiful in nature.

Con's of wild collecting:
- "The decimation of nature."

The problem with this thought is that it is not a fact, it's a hypothesis.

It's been brought up that habitat distruction plays a huge roll in limiting the corn's range. I agree that this is most likely the biggest contributor to any potential decline in corn snake numbers in the wild. I would like to see some studies on corn populations to know if they have indeed declined, stayed the same, or increased.

Believe it or not, corns can do very well on the edges of human population. Humans make tons of edible garbage. Edible garbage breeds tons of rodents and birds and bugs (which feed anoles, too). More feeder animals means more nutrition and potentially an increase in survivability of corns in the area. You might think there would be less habitat for egg laying, but then again, corns are pretty resourceful. Who was it that had a gravid female escape in their house and a few months later had a sudden invasion of hatchling corns? Predator influence near civilization...I don't know. Probably less predatory birds near civilization, but more feral cats. It would be an interesting study. OK, sorry for the rambling tangent, I'll get back to the topic.

What we don't know is the impact of wild collecting on the wild populations of corns. The simplest view would be Herper A takes out X number of corns from the wild. Those animals and their niche and the babies they would have produced are gone forever and the corn population will never be the same. I have a real problem with this view because nature just isn't that black and white. When you remove something from nature, a niche is left and will be rapidly filled. If I take out a gravid snake and her hatchlings, does that really decrease the number of yearlings next year? I very much doubt it. If the area is in homeostasis and you remove one member, that leaves an area of more resources for other hatchlings that may now survive when they would have starved before...or it may mean faster growing hatchlings where they would have barely maintained before.

I don't know if corns resemble the white tailed deer in that they need population control to decrease competition for limited resources. I don't know if field collecting is making any impact in the wild numbers of corn snakes out there, but I'm very skeptical. I will say that I would encourage anyone who field herps to leave the area as you found it, meaning put the overturned piece of tin back where it was, replace the rock you moved, pick up your garbage...but I can't condemn people for field collecting, especially in the face of no evidence that it is harmful to the wild population as a whole and in fact potentially could be beneficial. If I personally don't believe in bringing in wild caughts because there are plenty in captivity, I still have no right to condemn someone who wishes to.

One could mention the sideline to this of people pulling wild caughts, raising up a couple clutches, selecting some stock and releasing the parents and most of the other hatchlings back where they came from...but this brings up a whole nother debatable issue, what with potential introduction of disease to wild populations, over populating an area that can't support the increased numbers, etc. I'll leave that for another thread.

Lots of food to chew on in this debate. There is no black and white here, it's opinion, hypothesis, and view at this point. We can argue views all we want, but until the studies are brought to light, we're not dealing with any fact here.

I dont check the site for one day and look at what i miss!!!

Oh man, where to start...I make stupid comments a lot and I am usually on the wrong side of debates, but dude... what can I say...

Well OCfinfan... if you are so against capturing wild snakes to breed for captivity and in a sence almost insurring their survival, even if it is only in captivity, then you yourself are a hypocritical. YOu have no right to insinuate that someone else is a hypocritite!!

If you are so against it then I say let free your 2 corns, your 2 sinaloan milk snakes, and your calif king out into the wild. See how long they survive the elements of birds, oh, wait, they eat snakes right... cars, they can run over snakes too if I am not mistaken and countless other elements that, oh wait, thats right... with probably F_ING kill them too!! MORON!!!!

And for the whole endangered species list... come on, your 39, you should have at least a little common sence and intelligence!! Whales are on the endangered species list, wanna know why... CAUSE PEOPLE FREAKING HUNTED THEM!!!!!!!! Apes are on the list too, wanna know why they are... CAUSE PEOPLE FREAKING HUNTED THEM TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not to emntion tigers, rhinos, pandas, marine turtles, elephants... can you guess why they are all on the list too... yup! CAUSE PEOPLE FREAKING HUNTED THEM TOO!!!!! Why do you think they are protected now!!! Or bread in captivity, to ensure they survive!!

Now, I am new to snakes myself and I couldnt tell you why or how there are so many snakes on the endangered species list but i can take a guess... CAUSE THEY WERE FREAKING HUNTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boots, belts, other overpriced accessories... But when was the last time you heard about people going out and hunting corns... still waiting... yeah, thats what I thought!!! If anything, we are saving the species by breeding them and keeping them and stopping the harsh elements of our cruel world from killing them. Sure we play a part with construction and desecration, but I dont hear you b*tching about that now. Are you going to go on a construction forum and yell at them for building because amazingly enough, us humans like to live in buildings and have homes and drive cars on paved roads...

Oh, and about the gravid female and you saying that they lay so many eggs so that one may survive to breed on its own... lets say only 10 eggs hatched after being captured and cared for... umm, 1 survivor or 10... lets do the math... lets say that in one year, each snake again only laid 10 eggs for simplicity... the only one in the wild that survived laid 10 and lets keep your optimism and only 1 survives... hmmm, now you have 2 snakes... But lets say the 10 in captivity each have 10 offspring on their own that survive... hmm, i don't need a calculator to see that we now have 100 snakes... so in review, lets compare, 2 snakes, 100 snakes... but of course, your're right, lets just keep the 2 and see how fast they dissappear...

Oh yeah, and if the california king snake is so scarce because of people capturing them... where do you think yours came from? Hmm? I guarantee that at one point in time, your snake had relatives that were captured from the wild... still waiting for you to free yours though... let me know when you do so I can grab a tissue cause it will be a sad moment!

Lets see, what other contradictory and not intelligent things did you say... Quote: "I would be happier if wild snakes remained that way...wild." Still waiting to hear about your release party for your snakes...

Quote: "And FYI, EVERY animal that is either extinct or endangered was at one time plentiful." Yeah, CAUSE THEY WERE FREAKING HUNTED!!!! NOT CAPTURED TO BE BREAD IN CAPTIVITY IN THE PROBABLY HUNDRES OF THOUSANDS EACH YEAR!!!!!!!!!!! HUNTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seeing a pattern yet?

Quote: "And just to reiterate what I have previously said, I think there is a HUGE difference in capturing a snake that obviously doesnt have a chance..." So what about the other hatchlings that dont survive to adault hood that we were talking about earlier? Are they not worth saving cause according to you they dont have a chance??

Quote: "I dont have any facts to support this, but I will offer this; I believe the population of captive corn snakes has dramatically increased. And I think you could imply that if we are catching wild snakes, especially gravid ones, then the wild population would be decreasing."

No facts you say, but you are certain enough to imply that the wild population are decreasing b/c of catching wild snakes, "especially gravid ones". So what about all the other gravid snakes out there that are better at hiding from humans and are able to lay their eggs. Granted, we will never be able to give an accurate number to how many corns are left in the wild but still if captive corns are increasing we better be careful that corns dont go extinct, its not like we could just take some of the captive corns we have and rerelease them back into the wild if that does happen cause you know, that just would be dumb... :bang:

Well, that is enough out of me, I am going to bed to go to work in a few hours again so, OCFinfan, please feel free to bash me with whatever unrelated comments you like like hypocracy, of childish, or ignorant, cause really I dont care what you think about me. Im 19, your 39... grow up!

Hurley you beat me by a few minutes!!

OCFinfan,

I am a biologist and am not a huge supporter of wildcaught specimens myself, but frankly I find you horribly rude. You have insulted several people here that I consider friends and are good people. You also seem to have a serious problem telling the difference between what is written or said...and what you want to believe was written or said. A word of advice...Think Twice, Speak once (or type once in this case) This is a place where you can learn and make friends if you wish, but it seems that you have simply joined to bash people and force your own beliefs onto others. If this is your goal, please do it somewhere else.

Sincerely,
Erin Williams

Great post Hurley, you stated your opinion very well, and I concur with virtually all of what you said.
As far as mrweaw goes, I was only rude when someone was rude to me. I stated my point, how I felt, but the people that replied felt it was necesssary to resort to name calling way before they even tried to offer up a valid argument, if at all. You say I have a hard time telling the difference; however most people were trying to bash me for what was implied, trying to put words in my mouth, getting philosophical or hypothetical, rather than what was said. I do give you credit though for stating your opinion before you hopped on the bash bandwagon.
Now jay, very enlightening post!
1. Now, I am new to snakes myself and I couldnt tell you why or how there are so many snakes on the endangered species list but i can take a guess... CAUSE THEY WERE FREAKING HUNTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Boots, belts, other overpriced accessories... But when was the last time you heard about people going out and hunting corns... still waiting... yeah, thats what I thought!!! If anything, we are saving the species by breeding them and keeping them and stopping the harsh elements of our cruel world from killing them. Sure we play a part with construction and desecration, but I dont hear you b*tching about that now. Are you going to go on a construction forum and yell at them for building because amazingly enough, us humans like to live in buildings and have homes and drive cars on paved roads...

Is there a difference between hunting and taking a snake out of the wild for your personal collection? No. There is no difference between capturing a snake and making a belt out of it and keeping a wild caught snake in your personal collection. Either way, they are now out of nature. Then you say we are doing them a favor by catching them before we kill them. All righty then.
I am against construction in snake habitat, and yes, I have voiced my objections here in Southern California about some proposed buildings. Did it have any impact? Probably not. The houses were still built, but at least the topic was raised. However, at least the local fish and game has halted some projects when it was realized that there was an endangered species in the area about to be razed. At least its a start to try and raise public awareness.

2. Oh, and about the gravid female and you saying that they lay so many eggs so that one may survive to breed on its own... lets say only 10 eggs hatched after being captured and cared for... umm, 1 survivor or 10... lets do the math... lets say that in one year, each snake again only laid 10 eggs for simplicity... the only one in the wild that survived laid 10 and lets keep your optimism and only 1 survives... hmmm, now you have 2 snakes... But lets say the 10 in captivity each have 10 offspring on their own that survive... hmm, i don't need a calculator to see that we now have 100 snakes... so in review, lets compare, 2 snakes, 100 snakes... but of course, your're right, lets just keep the 2 and see how fast they dissappear...

In review, lets compare..100 snakes IN captivity, -2 in the wild. I feel there are more than enough corn snakes in captivity for every snake enthusiast out there.

3. Oh yeah, and if the california king snake is so scarce because of people capturing them... where do you think yours came from? Hmm? I guarantee that at one point in time, your snake had relatives that were captured from the wild... still waiting for you to free yours though... let me know when you do so I can grab a tissue cause it will be a sad moment!

Mine came from captive breeders, and of course at 1 point their ancestors were wild. I have no problem with the capturing and breeding of different kinds of snakes, but I feel we have accomplished that goal many times over, and there is no longer a need, nor has there been for quite some time to keep capturing wild caught snakes.

4. Lets see, what other contradictory and not intelligent things did you say... Quote: "I would be happier if wild snakes remained that way...wild." Still waiting to hear about your release party for your snakes...

Did I say captive bred snakes? No. I said wild snakes. You read it, copied it, and still got it wrong. I would prefer wild snakes remaining wild. period.

5. Quote: "And FYI, EVERY animal that is either extinct or endangered was at one time plentiful." Yeah, CAUSE THEY WERE FREAKING HUNTED!!!! NOT CAPTURED TO BE BREAD IN CAPTIVITY IN THE PROBABLY HUNDRES OF THOUSANDS EACH YEAR!!!!!!!!!!! HUNTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seeing a pattern yet?


You are stating my point for me. Capturing, hunted, its still the same result. A snake is removed from its natural environment.

6. Quote: "And just to reiterate what I have previously said, I think there is a HUGE difference in capturing a snake that obviously doesnt have a chance..." So what about the other hatchlings that dont survive to adault hood that we were talking about earlier? Are they not worth saving cause according to you they dont have a chance??

That is called nature. Most wont survive to maturity, but they still have a chance. When we take them out of the wild all chances are negated.

7. No facts you say, but you are certain enough to imply that the wild population are decreasing b/c of catching wild snakes, "especially gravid ones". So what about all the other gravid snakes out there that are better at hiding from humans and are able to lay their eggs. Granted, we will never be able to give an accurate number to how many corns are left in the wild but still if captive corns are increasing we better be careful that corns dont go extinct, its not like we could just take some of the captive corns we have and rerelease them back into the wild if that does happen cause you know, that just would be dumb...

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


People, my whole point is I feel there is a gluttony of corns in the market, and there is no need to capture snakes. Yes, corns are abundant and plentiful in some areas, especially FL where some of the people that replied live. But how much longer will they stay abundant? I am jealous that some of you live in areas that afford you the privilege of seeing some of these magnificent creatures in the their native habitat. When I was a child growing up, you could take a walk and find many different species of snakes; rosy boas, a few diffferent kings, a few different rattlesnakes, gopher snakes, racers, whiptails, garters, etc. Unfortunatley those days are gone. I hope that 1 day your children or their children will still be able to find the joy of taking a walk and coming across a plethora of animals that used to be taken for granted.
It is obvious that those of you that go out "herpin" and catching will continue to do so. But maybe instead of grabbing that gravid female, why dont you keep on searching for awhile till you find an older snake, preferably male, to add to your collection. I live near the ocean and there are strict regulations now in place about the size and amount of what you can keep. Unfortunately for most species that once thrived here, those rules have come too late. I dont want that to happen to corns or any other species.

Of course you know that we are not ALL in agreeance with the way that some people respond. Hope you don't get the wrong impression. I'm with Hurley on this one. Also a good post OC. I think this topic is ongoing and we can discuss it till we are blue in the face and not get anywhere. I don't own any WC, nor am I in the area to find them. But if I was, and ran across a unique specimin, I think that I would not feel any remorse about it. However, I am NOT going to go collect bags full of them.

OCFinfan said:

As far as mrweaw goes, I was only rude when someone was rude to me. I stated my point, how I felt, but the people that replied felt it was necesssary to resort to name calling way before they even tried to offer up a valid argument, if at all. You say I have a hard time telling the difference; however most people were trying to bash me for what was implied, trying to put words in my mouth, getting philosophical or hypothetical, rather than what was said.

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Let's not play Clintonian word games. What you said and what you implied were very clear. And that is that people are destroying the wild populations by collecting. It's right there in black and white.

You have still offered no proof, nor even a scrap of evidence to show this to be true. You can't just call someone an axe murderer and then act like it's their job to prove they are not. When you are making accusations (which you very clearly did) then it is upon you to prove them before anyone should have to make any arguments to the contrary.

And you can't just say, "you have no need to own an axe because I think you might use it to murder someone" and expect that people need to justify to you why they own an axe. Again, it is upon you to show that it is in some way "bad" before you can in any way justify telling other people what they can or cannot do or that they are "bad" for doing so.

You claim that this has happened with other species. That's true, but there are plenty of other species that are widely hunted, collected--whatever term you want to use--and are not destroyed by it. So your statement does not prove that anything WILL happen, just that it's possible. As I pointed out, it's also possible for "everyone" to do any number of normal everyday harmless things that would suddenly make it very destructive. That doesn't make said activity bad in itself, unless or until people actually start doing so in significant numbers to justify a belief that it's a realistic concern.

I could see if people were burning down fields and wiping out entire populations to collect a bunch of snakes and throw them in shipping containers to starve, dehydrate, and be eaten alive by parasites so that they could sell a few of them at rock-bottom prices to unsuspecting buyers. But that simply is not the case with cornsnakes.

Yes, if everyone went and collected a bag full of wild corns, there would be a problem. But that is not what is happening, and again you have not shown a single shred of evidence that anything of the sort is happening. Nor have you shown that the wild populations have even declined. The best you have offered is that the captive population has increased. They reproduce in great numbers in captivity, so of course they have increased. This says nothing of the wild population.

But, despite a total lack of evidence or even any kind of logical argument at your side, you still went ahead with your clearly accusatory tone. In order to make accusations that people are doing wrong by collecting, you first need to show that 1- there is a decline in the population, and 2- that said decline is a result of overcollecting. Well, where's the beef?

Meanwhile, here are some numbers. The ACR currently has 1606 snakes registered. Of these, 4, (yes, four) cornsnakes, are reported as wild-caught. That's one fourth of one percent. Two of those four wild caught snakes are the founders of the entire lava line. How many hundreds of lavas (or is it thousands now) have been produced in captivity? So far it's around 15% of the registered population that are carrying the lava gene.

One of those other wild-caught snakes is Susan's snake which she has said produced 135 or so hatchlings.

Meanwhile, 60% of the ACR's population is carrying the amel gene, which means that they are all in some way descended from Dr Bechtel's original albino. That's just the albino gene. Yes, those numbers will continue to change as more corns enter the registry, but it's not very likely that there will be massive changes to the makeup of the general population. You can check out the gene frequencies of the rest of them at this URL: http://cornguide.com/ACR/GeneFrequencies.php

I might regret chimming in on this one, but from what I can see, OC is one of those types that just likes to start crap and get everyone all worked up. They get off on arguments, and feed off the attention. So if you ask me, when someone makes a post that is so obviously an attempt to piss people off, the best thing to do is not respond and that person will go look for somewhere else to get the attention they're looking for. So not really anything to add, as it's all been said, but sometimes it's better to just let things go rather than get all worked up, cause it's just gonna keep going as long as the originator is getting what he/she wants out of it... attention.

No worries there, I have said what I think and believe on this subject. If my posts will have an impact on 1 person contemplating taking that beautiful animal they were so fortunate enough to see in nature, then my expressing myself and opening up my beliefs to everyone for them to judge and criticize will have been worth it.

Peace,

Tom Walker

OCFinfan said:

No worries there, I have said what I think and believe on this subject. If my posts will have an impact on 1 person contemplating taking that beautiful animal they were so fortunate enough to see in nature, then my expressing myself and opening up my beliefs to everyone for them to judge and criticize will have been worth it.

Peace,

Tom Walker

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Excellent, perhaps you can work on those who fish next

It is obvious that you cant see sarcasm when it blatantly slaps you in the face. Give me a reason or two on why we couldn't release captive corns back into the wild instead of just writing exactly. That was sarcasm when I wrote: "its not like we could just take some of the captive corns we have and re release them back into the wild if that does happen cause you know, that just would be dumb..." Actually give me an answer not just lame @ss bull sh*t!

And capturing and hunting is not the same! Sure they maybe taken out of the wild but we are not killing them! We are giving them a exponentially greater chance of survival. Exponentially means greater for lack of a better lamans word... just for your reference! And in fact I would say we are ensuring the survival of the species with breeding in captivity.

Quote: 4. Lets see, what other contradictory and not intelligent things did you say... Quote: "I would be happier if wild snakes remained that way...wild." Still waiting to hear about your release party for your snakes...
Did I say captive bred snakes? No. I said wild snakes. You read it, copied it, and still got it wrong. I would prefer wild snakes remaining wild. period.

I didnt get it wrong, you are just a hypocritic!

Hey look! Another hypocritical statement: "I have no problem with the capturing and breeding of different kinds of snakes,"

You know what man, you arnt even worth my time and effort. If oyu want to bitch and complain, start your own thread somehwere else, dont jack someone elses. Better yet, bitch and complaine somewhere else completely.

Jay, you might want to tone it down a notch, or two or three. It's nice that you're so passionate about the issue, but the vulgarity doesn't make your point for you, it only makes it harder to find.

Sigh...my head hurts from just skimming this thread. Smells like PETA rhetoric to me.

Having an opinion is one thing, but going onto a site where we all are snake lovers and enjoy our beautiful reptiles and bashing those who have taken one out of the wild is another. If you have an opinion, that is great... keep it to yourself, obviously this is not a site where controversy is something people come on here for. We all care for our snakes, and feel equally protective over them as you do, but that does not give you a right to barge in and force your opinion on us. If that is your opinion, you may want to find a website with people who share your same feelings, and rant and rave there along with them. We all feel the same here, and i don't think that aggravating everyone is going to make you feel any better about the topic. If you feel that taking snakes out of the wild is "terrible", then don't do it, it's a choice for people, not against the law... So I suggest you try not to force your beliefs upon us so that the members of this website can go back to enjoying ourselves.

I'm mostly a lurker here, but I don't like the idea that a discussion topic has to be non-controversial to have a place on this forum. The discussion would have been better if it had been in its own thread, and conducted with more civility, but I don't think this interesting topic should be taboo. I don't agree with OCFinfan's opinion on taking snakes from the wild (I've done it myself a few times), but I was interested in his opinions and those of other posters. I'm not so sensitive that I can't handle reading an opposing opinion, even if it is presented in a somewhat belligerent manner (and targets ME).

My $.02

Dont mean to bring this back up but...

Like jay stated, alot of animals are being hunted wich is why they are endanged, and people are now breeding them in captivity to try and get the population back up.

With all the people that live in florida, and moving to florida and hotter places (i should know, my family wants to move down their) There is a ton of construction and destroying of the corns habitat.

Its not like every single day people are going out there with the intentions of snaggin handfulls of wild corns. But yes, some people do it, but not to ruin the species...to better it, to get new blood, ETC. If i visited Florida (which we oftedn do) and I found/captured a wild corn snake...me being me, i would want to keep it (once checked over for parasites etc) as a piece of Florida since I can't live there.

Anywho, Instead of waiting until there is only about 100 corn snakes left in the wild, making it harder to bring the population back up, why can't we start now? To guarantee the survival of this species for YEARS to come.

EVERY snake came from the wild, generations..even the snakes you have..have wild genes.

Anyway, thats just me..