Poll:Live or pre-killed?

Today at work i was gonna feed one of the adult corn snakes we are babysitting, and one of my co-workers, Chris, was argueing that I should pre-kill the mouse, and wouldnt let up about it. well, i still gave it a live and he killed and ate it without any problems, but still chris was trying to prove me that feeding them live is very very bad. He had bred and kept many many different colubrids before in the past and has had burmese and reticulated pythons, so he knows a good bit bout his stuff. Well his reason for pre-killed is that the rat could bite the snake and cause serious injuries, or even bite it in the eye and blind the snake, but that was his only reasoning, and i absolutely agree that those things can and do happen often, seeing as though its happends many a times to his snakes, but i still would rather feed them live just because its in their nature to kill their own food, although keeping it in captivity isnt natural, so im torn between the arguement.
i made a poll to see what yall do, kill, or pre-kill?
looking forward to see responses!

~Alexis :cheers:

Since we are not replicating nature, what is the reasoning for feeding live? I see absolutely no positives for it, except for those that think its 'cool' to see a mouse killed. There are only risks associated by it. Even if you are supervising, it can happen in a blink of an eye, and before you know it, your snake is injured by a nice chunk of missing skin or even a injured/missing eyeball. If you know your snake will eat f/t, there is no reason to feed live. Its another thing when the only food your snake will eat is live, then thats a life or death scenario. Just do a search and you can easily see many pictures of what happens to snakes who are attacked by their food. To each their own I suppose, but I want my snakes to lead nice, comfortable, healthy lives, considering we are holding them in a captive situation. Why stress them out more and take those chances :shrugs:

much agreed, f/t I think is the best way for all the reasons listed above and one that was not, mites!

good points but what about nutrition? i dont know, so im asking, but something about a mouse that has been dead and frozen for a while would seem to have less nutrition or nurishment, over something that a live kill would contribute. so in the cause that live feeds have the risk of injury, then what are the ups of feeding them live at all? if there are none, other than some snakes refuse to eat f/t, then f/t it is!

alexisXflames said:

then what are the ups of feeding them live at all? if there are none, other than some snakes refuse to eat f/t, then f/t it is!

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The really aren't any, other than "exercise," which can be achieved by giving the snake a swim or by simply handling the snake. If the snake will take it (which most snakes will), f/t is definitely the best option, especially with adult mice/rats.

alexisXflames said:

good points but what about nutrition? i dont know, so im asking, but something about a mouse that has been dead and frozen for a while would seem to have less nutrition or nurishment, over something that a live kill would contribute

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Um, if you can find ANY science backing up this assumption, I will be very suprised.

I have never eaten any thing live in my life, and I'm not dead yet. Same with every dog and cat I know. I have no idea why you think this would harm a snake.

Three of my snakes eat FT, even the ones who had been fed live pinks by the breeder. The fourth snake, a WC adult, used to eat FT with no problems, but went on a six week feeding strike, and then would only take FK- fresh killed. I _think_ she could go back to FT now- I _think_ she just needed a longer length between meals, going from every seven days to every 10-14- but I haven't tried yet.

I know the breeder of one of my snakes believes that they lose nutritional value if frozen, but I sure don't even think about that when eating frozen chicken or turkey or beef- so I'm not sure I buy that logic.

At any rate, FT is super-convenient.

Nanci

I'm a new corn snake owner (only 4 meals so far!) but my snake has taken f/t twice, prekilled once and live once (i guess it was my grim curiosity this last time.) I'm going to stick to f/t though, mostly I worry about parasites- freezing kills any as far as I understand it. To me, that may make the difference between a wild snake's average lifespan and the two or more decades I'd like to spend with my new friend.

Please for the sake of your snake, and the sake of your pocket book when you need to rush to a vet because of something like this..
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Would you really want your snake to go through this?
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Just my 2 cents.
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Ryan,
Lifesong Photos

Poor boa... and it could have been prevented by simply thumping the mouse against the wall. It's not that hard to do... You can't always rely on the snake to kill its food, in captivity their hunting skills are not honed and it's our responsibilty as keepers to prevent such tragedies!

Wow! That's a freakin' terrible sight!
Don't jump all over me people, because if I knew I wouldn't ask. But has anyone actually seen something like this happen with a mouse? (I'm assuming here that a rat caused that injury) I have more experience with both rats and mice than I've had with snakes, and I really couldn't see a mouse attacking like this.. (out of aggression I mean- though I could see it out of hunger if someone left them together for a criminally neglectful period of time..) However, I could easily imagine my old rat Vlad, who was normally very sweet (may he rest in peace) getting very aggressive if he felt threatened by a large animal and couldn't run.
I know, I know- F/T or prekilled is better, and I fully intend to continue that way from here out (even before I got to this posting) I just can't help wondering about a mouse's capability to inflict this kind of damage..

tom e said:

Wow! That's a freakin' terrible sight!
Don't jump all over me people, because if I knew I wouldn't ask. But has anyone actually seen something like this happen with a mouse? (I'm assuming here that a rat caused that injury) I have more experience with both rats and mice than I've had with snakes, and I really couldn't see a mouse attacking like this.. (out of aggression I mean- though I could see it out of hunger if someone left them together for a criminally neglectful period of time..) However, I could easily imagine my old rat Vlad, who was normally very sweet (may he rest in peace) getting very aggressive if he felt threatened by a large animal and couldn't run.
I know, I know- F/T or prekilled is better, and I fully intend to continue that way from here out (even before I got to this posting) I just can't help wondering about a mouse's capability to inflict this kind of damage..

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Think about it, a rat did that to a 8' boa. Im sure a mouse could do equal damage to a little 2' corn snake. All you have to do is search you tube for feeding videos and 99% of them feed live. Half the time you will here something in the background saying "Woah, I think he bit him" or "Will he bite him". There is no safe way to feed a snake a live mouse. There is NO reason to have to feed live. I have dealt with LOTs of snakes, and never had a snake that wouldn't take f/t or atleast p/k.
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Ryan,
Lifesong Photos

I feed live, knowing all the risks. However, no pet shops around sell frozen, and it isn't practical for me to buy over the internet, because I haven't seen a F/T store that doesn't have a minimum buying requirement. I only have 2 snakes, and by the time the bag of mice is three quarters done, my snakes probably won't even be on mice anymore. Also, the ball python we're taking in a bit is not the best eater. I'm doubtful that he'll take frozen. I'm sure that my original 2 will take frozen, but again, it's not practical.

I watch my snakes until the mice are dead, in case anything happens. I also hold the mouse by it's tail until the snake grabs it. I'm hoping that will reduce accidents, too.

chibitamalove said:

I feed live, knowing all the risks. However, no pet shops around sell frozen, and it isn't practical for me to buy over the internet, because I haven't seen a F/T store that doesn't have a minimum buying requirement. I only have 2 snakes, and by the time the bag of mice is three quarters done, my snakes probably won't even be on mice anymore. Also, the ball python we're taking in a bit is not the best eater. I'm doubtful that he'll take frozen. I'm sure that my original 2 will take frozen, but again, it's not practical.

I watch my snakes until the mice are dead, in case anything happens. I also hold the mouse by it's tail until the snake grabs it. I'm hoping that will reduce accidents, too.

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I don't want to get into any kind of arguments here so please be practical on my opinion im about to state. I may just be really strong towards not feeding live because I have seen first hand the damages that can be done. You are saying that you know the risks. So you know, that the mouse could be in a bad mood, and take a chunk out of your corn. Do you have a vet number on hand? Do you have the proper medicine to help the snake until you can get into a vet? And you are saying that you hold the mouses tail while he is eating, you do realize the the mice could do alot more then just simply "bite" the snake. Claws and teeth can bite through the mouth area, puncture eyes, cut through tongue sheaths, and puncture or slice through a coil of the predator's body. I have heard of a person who found a wild gopher snake whose jaw had been fractured and half its tongue bitten off by prey who had successfully fought off a feeding attempt, its grossly swollen and bloodied tongue sheath dangling from the broken, crooked jaw.

Whether it happens or not, however, is immaterial. We are responsible for the health and well-being of our animals in captivity. That means keeping them properly housed, heated, humidified and fed. And that means keeping them safe from avoidable harm.

Thanks,
Ryan,
Lifesong Photos

Yup, we do. We have a herp vet's number, and we've got some Neosporin just in case.

I hold until my snakes grab and constrict. And then I watch until the mice are dead, and then I leave them alone to eat.

ratsncorns said:

Since we are not replicating nature, what is the reasoning for feeding live?

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I do appreciate having read this! While I understand that it is within a snake's nature -- in the wild -- to constrict its food, and not eat frozen/thawed (f/t), my snakes are *not* in the wild...thus the situation has changed, including how a snake is fed. And, yes, I do understand that it is possible that my snakes may refuse anything but live, and while I'll be loath to feed live, I simply cannot refuse to feed the snake as I agreed to care for it -- and I will do my best to find alternatives to feeding simply live. However, as I'm caring for it, I prefer to feed f/t...the snake has its food, I don't have to kill the food. Nice little happy balance created there and the guilt over feeding f/t vanishes... :sidestep:

(Although, I don't mind one bit watching my cats terrorize the crickets that escape from my keeper for my geckos & beardie...brilliant fun. )

Ryan, has your boa recovered from the rat attack? Wow, I am so sorry to see that...

Cegninedorf said:

I do appreciate having read this! While I understand that it is within a snake's nature -- in the wild -- to constrict its food, and not eat frozen/thawed (f/t), my snakes are *not* in the wild...thus the situation has changed, including how a snake is fed. And, yes, I do understand that it is possible that my snakes may refuse anything but live, and while I'll be loath to feed live, I simply cannot refuse to feed the snake as I agreed to care for it -- and I will do my best to find alternatives to feeding simply live. However, as I'm caring for it, I prefer to feed f/t...the snake has its food, I don't have to kill the food. Nice little happy balance created there and the guilt over feeding f/t vanishes... :sidestep:

(Although, I don't mind one bit watching my cats terrorize the crickets that escape from my keeper for my geckos & beardie...brilliant fun. )

Ryan, has your boa recovered from the rat attack? Wow, I am so sorry to see that...

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It wasnt my boa, but it was a friends of mine.
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Ryan,
Lifesong Photos

tom e said:

Don't jump all over me people, because if I knew I wouldn't ask.

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Ah, well, this is a cornsnake board. As such, people are rather passionate about their snakes, and if you say you are doing something that could potentially harm one, well, it's going stir things up a bit. But, if you're switching to f/t, I think it's wonderful you're weighing the pro's and con's and doing what is best for your snake in the end. Victory!

(and don't tell anyone, but I'm also kind of passionate about mice & rats. Wouldn't want anyone to think I'm weird, now). :grin01:

ratsncorns said:

If you know your snake will eat f/t, there is no reason to feed live.

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That does bring up one good reason for feeding live: when the snake will not eat anything else. I'm up to 19 snakes now, most of them corns. I have one who will not eat anything other than live and moving. No matter how you dangle the F/T, prekilled or stunned, he doesn't want it. He ate yesterday, and I had to remove a dead mouse from his cage and substitute a live one for him to kill and eat. The irony is that he had killed the first mouse, but caught it at an awkward angle; in trying to position himself to eat, he first got some newspaper in his mouth, and that was all it took. He shot one last look at the dead body and went back in his hide. As soon as I removed the offensive carcass and gave him a new mouse, he shot back out and went about his business.

I have one other adult that will eat live, a female Taiwan Beauty. I've only had Mata Hari for a couple of weeks, and hadn't purchased any adult mice for her, as I wasn't sure I would be getting her until the last minute. She ate Lucius's kill, as well as the live mouse I gave her. I will be switching her to F/T with my December The Mouse Factory order, but it is nice to have the flexibility.

I stand at the viv and watch until I know Lucius (or Mata Hari) have successfully grabbed and coiled the mouse, and there isn't any danger of them being injured. I don't stand and watch the mouse die or watch the snake eat. Other than still marvelling at the extent to which they can open their mouths, I don't find the process to be entertaining. I go about my other chores and check back every few minutes to see if want seconds.

My Baird's Ratsnake youngster, my '05 corns and my '06 corn youngsters all eat F/T. It's cleaner, safer, and far easier than either making a trip to a petstore every week, hoping they have live pinkies in stock, or dealing with the smell and mess of maintaining a colony of my own. I buy what I'll need for the next month, toss it in the freezer, and thaw out when it's time to feed.

I don't concern myself with "natural". In nature, it would be 45 degrees outside right now and the majority of hatchlings would have died or been killed before the first leaves turned brown. In nature, food wouldn't be delivered on a convenient and growth promoting schedule, but would haphazardly appear to the lucky ones while many others starved without ever eating a meal. Nature is a heartless bitch who doesn't play favorites; I'm a soft-hearted schmuck willing to fork out eighty or a hundred bucks every month to feed a slither of snakes that see me as either a provider of grub or an annoying pest who wants to manhandle them when they'd prefer to be tucked away in the aspen, dreaming of the mouse that got away. My snakes won the lottery when they were born in captivity, nature be damned.

chibitamalove said:

I feed live, knowing all the risks. However, no pet shops around sell frozen, and it isn't practical for me to buy over the internet, because I haven't seen a F/T store that doesn't have a minimum buying requirement. I only have 2 snakes, and by the time the bag of mice is three quarters done, my snakes probably won't even be on mice anymore. Also, the ball python we're taking in a bit is not the best eater. I'm doubtful that he'll take frozen. I'm sure that my original 2 will take frozen, but again, it's not practical.

I watch my snakes until the mice are dead, in case anything happens. I also hold the mouse by it's tail until the snake grabs it. I'm hoping that will reduce accidents, too.

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my ex-step-mother used to have a ball python that she fed live, and never ONCE had a problem with feeding issues, so im just used to that..

v various said:

Um, if you can find ANY science backing up this assumption, I will be very suprised.

I have never eaten any thing live in my life, and I'm not dead yet. Same with every dog and cat I know. I have no idea why you think this would harm a snake.

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wow dont jump on me here! i said it that its "seems" to me that it might be that way, and we are not snakes, we are homo sapiens, genetically quite different. and i never said that it would kill them to feed them f/t, i feed mine f/t, i just wanted to see what everyone else does.

fenderplayer108 said:

Please for the sake of your snake, and the sake of your pocket book when you need to rush to a vet because of something like this..
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Would you really want your snake to go through this?

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wow that is terrible, definately makes u think twice bout feeding live.

shed'n my skin said:

You can't always rely on the snake to kill its food, in captivity their hunting skills are not honed and it's our responsibilty as keepers to prevent such tragedies!

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wise words and great point! i also have thought about that, that they are in captivity so their hunting skillz and natural instincts in general may be a bit off, so i think i'll stick to f/t.



great to see all the responds i love hearing everyone elses input! thanks guys! :santa: