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Purist Breeders
- Thread starter Carpe Serpentis
- Start date
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Most species of Brugmansia are not self-fertile. You can't simply self pollinate to get more with most species of Brugmansia and while many cultivars are ridiculously easy to propagate for even the novice, some are not so easy so one can not over generalize when it comes to species or cultivars of Brugmansia. Yes, there are many plants in the world that are poisonous in our gardens. A tomato plant also contains poison. True Brugmansia aurea species are very rare in many people's collections with many cultivars being labeled as aurea.... really being hybrids. Brugmansia sanguinea, vulcanicola, arborea, flava etc. are amongst some of the most beautiful Brugmansia for me personally. While the Brugmansia aurea carries a much smaller flower than some species, it is one of my favorites in its true species form. A pure species Brugmansia versicolor with its long bells flowing down and blooming times all put off a show like no other, but what amazes me about the hybrids of B. versicolor x B. aurea is that you can get a phenotype to arise by doing so that does not appear in either species... albeit it is a rarity....
dave partington
Crazy Dave
Carpe, when you're fiddling with bigeneric hybrids, for example Brugmansia X Datura, and manage to successfully get some seeds growing which prove out to be bigeneric hybrids at flowering time, and go to name them ( XBrugatura or XDatmansia ):
Does the first half of the 'Xname' indicate the seed parent, or does the last part of the 'Xname' represent the seed parent, or are there no rulz around the order? I've also been wondering the same thing in regards to animal hybrids. And why do we call them, for example, CaliKorns instead of XLamprophis
Does the first half of the 'Xname' indicate the seed parent, or does the last part of the 'Xname' represent the seed parent, or are there no rulz around the order? I've also been wondering the same thing in regards to animal hybrids. And why do we call them, for example, CaliKorns instead of XLamprophis
airenlow
hope is not a strategy
To deceive unsuspecting noobs...
creamsicle CORN
rootbeer CORN
cinnamon CORN
jungle CORN
super CORN
rich333
They Are Coming!!!
dave partington
Crazy Dave
I quite agree. If they were Korns instead of Corns, that might be a good place to start.
Mark Dwight
New member
Why can't breeders leave nature alone and just breed the pure and natural albino, bug eye and scaleless morphs. How dare they propagate unnatural genes to make our domestic pets. And I'm pissed off at dog breeders too...how dare they go and destroy a perfectly good wolf and make a domestic pet. I hear they are now even breeding our domestic wolves with coyotes and jackals further polluting the genes. It just makes me sick. And the worst part they're selling these "dogs" to unsuspecting noobs who don't even realize they're just getting a watered down wolf. Oh the shame...the shame.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
You can use the portmanteau method and place the sire first and the mother last when dealing with animals. However, applying a cultivar name is also valid. I do understand your point however. A cornduran should be a male corn and a female honduran following the portmanteau method of naming. A corn-cornduran for example could be a very valid name for a corn (m) crossed to a cornduran (f). What I find interesting is that with many hybrids males tend to be the least fertile. But, it also appears that with increasingly breeding back to one pure species or another the fertility of the males are generally restored. What this means to me is that if one wants to get seriously into hybridizing one must often breed back to a pure specimen while test crossing to ensure the desired traits are still present in the breeder and resulting progeny. Your trying to backcross into that pure specimen to ensure that the traits you are after are retained. Then once fertility is restored to your males and can test cross again and breed siblings together that each carry the trait or traits you were after. This establishes your fertile breeding pool from which to begin your true work. I'm assuming that with multi-hybrid snakes, if that same infertility is seen in males, that this must be done to restore the fertility and to continue in any earnest way to make headway. I may be wrong in those assumptions as only time and experience will tell.
Plant naming is interesting as well. For example, orchids have their own system for naming found in the Handbook of Orchid Nomenclature and Registration. xSanderara for example denotes hybrids between the genera Brassia, Cochlioda, and Odontoglossum and honors H.F.C. Sander, the British orchidologist. Seed parents are generally listed first in a hybrid or one can use alphabetical order. Sometimes symbols for female and male are used.
Plant naming is interesting as well. For example, orchids have their own system for naming found in the Handbook of Orchid Nomenclature and Registration. xSanderara for example denotes hybrids between the genera Brassia, Cochlioda, and Odontoglossum and honors H.F.C. Sander, the British orchidologist. Seed parents are generally listed first in a hybrid or one can use alphabetical order. Sometimes symbols for female and male are used.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
If I am mistaken in any of this, I'm always open to learning something new. One thing is for certain, hybridization between different species of animals and even speciation by hybridization is known to occur. I do look at what breeders do by selecting genes/phenotypes that they like as being just as unnatural as hybridizing as neither types of breeding would occur in nature in the ways that we do it as these morphs and hybrids would not be selected for by a man or woman guiding their evolutionary path in nature except by the pressures we apply such as pesticides, etc. which have resulted in giving favor to the Algerian mouse (Mus spretus) which has formed a new species by breeding with domestic mice (Mus musculus domesticus) thanks to the selective pressure of our use of warfarin to kill the nonresistant domestic mice. “Biologist Michael Kohn of Rice University in Houston, Texas and his associate believed that they "caught evolution in the act" while studying mice resistant to warfarin in a German bakery. Genetic study revealed that the supposed house mice carried a significant amount of Algerian mouse DNA in their chromosomes and a gene (VKOR, which has been thought to appear first in Mus spretus and perpetuate because it has helped the mice to survive while eating vitamin K deficient diets) that confers resistance to warfarin. The discovery was believed to have evolutionary importance because this was the first time hybridization had been shown to result in a positive consequence. The discovery was published in the journal Current Biology in July 2011.”
Red wolves and their hybrid coyote past.... Coywolves.... as it is also known that red wolves contain coyote dna.
Red wolves and their hybrid coyote past.... Coywolves.... as it is also known that red wolves contain coyote dna.
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
One can also use the "don't do" method. It's very disappointing that more don't use more self-control with this method, and especially in more recent years. Yeah, it can make real stuff more sought after, but it's sad that it has to be at the overall hobby's great expense.
Here is an awesome aberrant Ecuadoran Milksnake(L.t.micropholis) that was said to be photographed in Ecuador. There are NO authentic Ecuadoran milks in today's hobby, only a man-made intergrade from L.t.andesiana x micropholis. Which BTW were sold as real ones several years ago. Didn't take long after a few compared what they got and from the following progeny that they were obvious crosses.
Me and others would give almost ANYTHING to be lucky enough to own this incredible animal......and especially a sexual pair!
Here is a nice wild locale corn from extreme southern Miami/Dade county that I have in the collection to keep it in proper "corn" theme:
Here is an awesome aberrant Ecuadoran Milksnake(L.t.micropholis) that was said to be photographed in Ecuador. There are NO authentic Ecuadoran milks in today's hobby, only a man-made intergrade from L.t.andesiana x micropholis. Which BTW were sold as real ones several years ago. Didn't take long after a few compared what they got and from the following progeny that they were obvious crosses.
Me and others would give almost ANYTHING to be lucky enough to own this incredible animal......and especially a sexual pair!
Here is a nice wild locale corn from extreme southern Miami/Dade county that I have in the collection to keep it in proper "corn" theme:
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
One can also use the "don't do" method. It's very disappointing that more don't use more self-control with this method, and especially in more recent years. Yeah, it can make real stuff more sought after, but it's sad that it has to be at the overall hobby's great expense.
Here is an awesome aberrant Ecuadoran Milksnake(L.t.micropholis) that was said to be photographed in Ecuador. There are NO authentic Ecuadoran milks in today's hobby, only a man-made intergrade from L.t.andesiana x micropholis. Which BTW were sold as real ones several years ago. Didn't take long after a few compared what they got and from the following progeny that they were obvious crosses.
Me and others would give almost ANYTHING to be lucky enough to own this incredible animal......and especially a sexual pair!
Here is a nice wild locale corn from extreme southern Miami/Dade county that I have in the collection to keep it in proper "corn" theme:
Is it possible to backcross Ecuadoran Milksnake(L.t.micropholis) hybrids back to at least one pure specimen? I'm not saying this is ideal by any means, but if its the only option.... breeding back to a single known pure specimen is better than simply breeding to another hybrid. If only one specimen or one gender was imported, it would not be in anyones collection if this hybrid was not created. I am not promoting its hybridization, but sometimes it is the only means of continuing with a line and if so and purity is sought then one is left with breeding back to others of pure species of the same gender... i.e. if only males of this species were imported one could backcross hybrid progenies of both lines back to other pure species specimens and eventually get a reasonable amount of purity. Id think this is preferable to simply having one pure specimen that will never breed or pass on its genes. What are your thoughts on this Doug?
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
Crossing a known authentic L.t.micropholis specimen to the one intergrade line would definitely be done if there where any at all. But there is not even a single known L.t.micropholis in the entire hobby today...absolutely NONE! There used to be some incredible specimens years ago, but those have all since died due to several unfortunate reasons/causes. There was even an anerythristic specimen along with a normal not so long ago,........but alas........all expired.
Some real ones will likely appear at some point, I just hope it isn't in the too distant future. The Smith's milksnake, Dixon's milksnake, Blanchard's milksnake, and the Pacific Central American milksnake (L.t.oligozona) are a few others that are 100% non-existent. I produced a few oligozona many years ago from a gravid import before I was 100% sure of what they were. Since the mid-90's when I produced those, and sold them as simply "Central American milks", have all undoubtedly since been melted into the "hobby Hondo stew like so many others have over the years.
I and just a couple others have the only bloodline of Blanchard's in the entire hobby, but those have some L.t.polyzona influence from the female Moscow Zoo import that was bred with the locale-specific patternless blanchardi male. He was found as a youngster on a small chicken ranch just outside of Quintana Roo, Mexico on the Yucatan peninsula.
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Dough, with L.t.micropholis, is it possible to attain frozen sperm for artificial insemination? Or could one possibly have eggs shipped easier?
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
I like the yellow of that one closer to the head as it breaks up the pink background you speak of farther down. The two complement each other quite nicely.
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
It's possible, but not very practical. That might be tougher and more problematic to do than getting some actual snakes. I think everyone will just have to wait for some authentic ones to surface one day. Same thing with the others I mentioned.
~Doug
DMong
colubrid connoisseur
Carpe Serpentis
Hybrid Snake Lover
Is it known whether that yellow portion of your Miami is heritable? I've seen a few other snakes with such a look, but I can't recall if it was mentioned if it were heritable. I think if so, then it would make for some amazing morph combinations. Please forgive me if this is too easy of a question or is posted somewhere else.
As for eggs being harder to ship, what are the stumbling blocks to this that you see. Again, forgive me for my ignorance as my experience is mostly with shipping plants, chicken eggs, etc.
Thank you Doug, I am beginning to see your point of view and it is a saddening state of affairs indeed when pure specimens are no longer able to be found. The same thing is found in the hobby with Brugmansia as there are very few Brugmansia aurea that I consider pure. Take the Brugmansia Dave P. posted in his blue linked "brugs" He posted a what appears to me as a multihybrid consisting of 3 different species all bottled up into one hybrid. It is very important to me personally, to try and keep species pure and to do this hybrids or suspected hybrids must be labeled appropriately and yes... I see your point... perhaps it is better not to hybridize at all if one can not keep them separate.
As for eggs being harder to ship, what are the stumbling blocks to this that you see. Again, forgive me for my ignorance as my experience is mostly with shipping plants, chicken eggs, etc.
Thank you Doug, I am beginning to see your point of view and it is a saddening state of affairs indeed when pure specimens are no longer able to be found. The same thing is found in the hobby with Brugmansia as there are very few Brugmansia aurea that I consider pure. Take the Brugmansia Dave P. posted in his blue linked "brugs" He posted a what appears to me as a multihybrid consisting of 3 different species all bottled up into one hybrid. It is very important to me personally, to try and keep species pure and to do this hybrids or suspected hybrids must be labeled appropriately and yes... I see your point... perhaps it is better not to hybridize at all if one can not keep them separate.