Scale less Corns anyone?

Sure, -that's- the proper attitude. Everyone's doing it or will want it so it's right.

It -really- does bother me that people are so fixed on what looks cool and don't give the slightest thought to whether or not they are hurting the snakes in the process.

Antibiotics -seemed- like the best solution, the wonder cure- and now due to excessive use we have developed stronger bacteria, some of which to this day are not treatable.

The human race has always been very good at doing whatever fitted their notion of comfortable and neat while disregarding the potential ramifications- because to first study it, would mean that one has to "heaven forbid" wait and not obtain immediate satisfaction.

What you are doing now is not thinking, you are currently acting on impulses- to do what looks neat. You have -no- idea what the effects would look like 10, 20 or a hundred years hence- but heck, you just want your cool looking snake.

To me, this approach is appalling.

That kind of approach is exactly what brought us Ecological issues which we don't really know how to contain or fix. Think first, act later, stop doing the exact opposite, it drives me bannanas.

And if you think that you now know Albinos are perfectly alright you're wrong. You provide a sheltered life in a terrarium away from sun light which can damage their eyes.
You can technically hook a man to respiratory machines and insulate him to old age- that's a "good" life? the fact that he can live to a 100?

Bah, I am leaving this discussion. I have 0% for the phrase "Ignorance is bliss". It is not, it is irresponsible, greedy and impulsive.

> Sure, -that's- the proper attitude. Everyone's doing it or will want it so it's right.

I'll assume you misunderstood because of a language barrier and let it go at that.

> Antibiotics -seemed- like the best solution, the wonder cure- and now due to excessive use we have developed stronger bacteria, some of which to this day are not treatable.

Right. Breeding snakes not fit for the wild will result in thousands of humans or wild animals dying in the wild in 50 years. You have changed my mind. Well, you would have if you would have made a VALID point.....lol.

> You have -no- idea what the effects would look like 10, 20 or a hundred years hence- but heck, you just want your cool looking snake.

If every captive cornsnake (that was not locality pure and "wildtype") died right this second, what would be the REAL damage to the ecosystem, human life, or anything else? Sure, people would lose pets, there'd be some relatively minor economic damage, and some research would be cut short....but what would be the "fire and brimstone" results that you are predicted. None, right?

If that is the case, what difference could it make to the "world" if these were less likely to survive on their own or not? Look at horses: we've bed them so they almost can NOT give birth on their own. The world hasn't ended because of it. Look at all of the plants that we depend on for food that can't reproduce reliably in the wild any longer. The world hasn't ended...and that won't even be a concern unless human society ends FIRST.

I can understand people not liking them - I struggle with these guys myself and I will continue to do so until I am convinced they are as healthy in CAPTIVE collections as albinos and other morphs! - but I have yet to see any explanation for why these are wrong but albinos are OK that isn't based on hypocrisy. Period.

If someone hates all morphs - including SELECTIVE bred "wildtypes" - then I completely respect their opinion on these. If someone has every colored corn under the sun but says THESE are wrong.....well, they still have a right to their opinion. Even normals are slectively bred away from their wild counterparts, so they are no different from any of the other extremes.

Just remember: if there wasn't a market for them, then nobody would want to breed them for sale!

All of your replies are logical, but they are also misguided. Why? Because you seem to think you have it all figured out. You believe there is no unknown outcome to be had.

Do you really believe that you are smarter than say... the ones who came up with the use of Antibiotics?

The moment you unleash something into the hands of the public you have no control over what will be done with it.
Do you think people, especially kids, do not lose snakes on a daily basis? It begins with a minor effect which accumulates. An effect which you cannot predict- sure, the likelihood of something going bad seems low to you, but that comes from your wants for a "pretty snake". You haven't really taken the time to consider the effects of say- a massive breakout of such animals into the wild which may drastically effect wild-life population hmm?

And dogs, dogs who today are known to suffer from specific ailments caused by their genes and body structure- did the first men who began breeding dogs ever in their wildest dreams thought it would come to this? The answer's no.

It took man hundreds of years before he could prove many things, the fact that we don't always have the tools to prove something does not mean we should disregard the option. Because sometimes when you do manage to prove it, it is too late.

The fact that you want something does not mean you -have- to have it. Some things effect too many differentials which you may not understand. And with -all- due respect, death of hundreds of animals definitely strikes me as a disaster. I am quite sad that everything you care about is the economical loss. I really couldn't care less. We are putting the snake's lives on the line here, not ours- This is a selfish and immoral act, period.

I do not like all of these "doom-sayers" who say that selective breeding will be the end of all because I don't believe it either. But I am very much against those who constantly seek to push the envelope. The minute you cross one red line, another one is revealed. And I think that your response simply proves how people would go to any length to get what they want and be narrowed minded because it may make them feel bad about it.

And say you will draw the line here, by releasing these animals to the general public you have given them the tools to break the next one.

The only known fact is that you -cannot- predict everything, and that you -do not- know anything.
So yes, I think immediate satisfaction can be postponed in favour of studying.

Also, I have mentioned it three times by now and you ignore it- According to scientific documentations scales have a role in thermal regulation and dehydration prevention.

There are any number of deformities you can keep in an insulated enough environment. That does not mean they do not suffer.
Snakes are coded not to display pain unless the situation is fatal- and that's also a fact. Forgive me but only a delusional being would insist on being so narrow minded and demand proofs all the time. The common belief was that the world was flat no? how many ages did it take for them to realize they were -WRONG-?

From your post it is apparent that all you care about is getting your hands on what you want- no matter the cost, because if you can't see the cost it does not exist. If you can and want to living with your head in the sand- that's your choice.

As for me, I am quite afraid to think that people are willing to risk animals only to fulfill such a shallow desire for "prettyness".

I say we breed them (along with eye-less and tail-less and whatever else-less) en-mass in order to test future generations for the trait and can therefore weed it out of the population . . . :sidestep:

D80

Kokopelli said:

Also, I have mentioned it three times by now and you ignore it- According to scientific documentations scales have a role in thermal regulation and dehydration prevention.

Click to expand...

No, I'm just not sure that the effect is large enough to be of concern in captive situations. It isn't like these are SKINLESS snakes.....lol.

(Redheads are more susceptible to skin cancer, so should we not allow them to breed? Heck, that's be a shame since they are the prettiest women on Earth. Still - imagine the DAMAGE to the future if they are allowed to breed and the ozone layer deteriates more. Humans may just all undergo spontaneously combustion in 74.5 years!)

I really don't care one way or the other because what you or I think won't change the final outcome. Right or wrong, these WILL be produced - just like hybrids - and people WILL buy them. It doesn't matter if I hated them, loved them, or don't care. Honestly, I don't care. I'm just having fun watching your posts get more an more antagonistic for know reason that is obvious to me.......lol.

I needed a laugh.
KJ

Indifference is one of humanity's greater sins.
To shrug off responsibility is the easier route out.
To say "it'll happen anyway" is in my opinion no less harmful than committing the act itself.
I would have far greater respect for someone who actually gave a solid opinion, even if opposed mine, rather than claimed "it will happen anyway". Because of such indifference many disasters took place throughout history.

Accept reality as it is- do whatever you want. But I think it is amusing you act as though you are -better- because you have accepted a rotten reality?

You mock people who care more than you do? I am not sure if I find it disturbing or amusing.

And yes, I full heartedly believe that a person willing to make a stand is worth more than someone who does whatever he wants because "it'll happen anyways"

Night peeps

Wow, shocking, unnerving, odd, beautiful, and somehow makes me nervous. I worry about the long term effects. And why strip an animal of something that defines them, protects them, and has evolved for a reason. I'm not saying that the people who are doing this are cruel. I just truly hope that this doesn't make it to the public sector. I guess it's somewhat akin to breeding to cause the loss of pads on the feet of dogs. They have a purpose. They are absolutely beautiful. But so are natural corns.

Kokopelli said:

And yes, I full heartedly believe that a person willing to make a stand is worth more than someone who does whatever he wants because "it'll happen anyways"

Click to expand...

I've been through this with hybrids probably before you were old enough to own your first snake (if your posted your correct age). Trust me - I spoke fire and brimstone back then, too. The only difference is I didn't twist scientific facts to make them sound like they supported me more than they did. Now? It HAS come to pass. You probably can't buy a pure albino cornsnake any longer. My fears BECAME reality. Hybrid dangers were and are real.

You want to know the truth? Cornsnakes in captivity are almost all hybrids at this point. I don't care about them any longer. Indifference? Sure -whatever you want to call it. I say we are reaping what we sowed, we deserve what we get, and to hell with all of it. If cornsnakes still had a chance at being pure in captivity, I would be there with you calling these abominations against nature. I used the term 10 years ago when I saw my first scaleless Pituophis. Really. Now? What the heck? Captive cornsnakes are nothing more than hybrids. You can't do worse to them than that. Does it make it wright? No, but it doesn't make it any WORSE.

If the snakes have no obvious signs of discomfort in proper captive settings, then I don't see a problem since, well, cornsnakes in captivity are already as screwed up as it can possibly get! Anythign else is just Lagniappe at this point. Pissing in a Superfund site isn't good, but it sure won't cause any more damage!

...and , by the way, most of your conclusions hold as much water as the arguments liberals use to say guns cause crime: none at all.

Kaleidescope_Eyes said:

I just truly hope that this doesn't make it to the public sector.

Click to expand...

Notice who he got them from: Brian Barczyck. BHB is one of the largest breeders of snakes for the private sector in the United States. Good or bad - he's gonna make a lot of money on them.

At least this is a simple recessive trait - you can keep it out of your collection if you want. try to keep creamsicle genes out of your collection. THAT is much more of a difficult problem

Kaleidescope_Eyes said:

They have a purpose.

Click to expand...

So does melanin, right?

KJUN said:

I've been through this with hybrids probably before you were old enough to own your first snake (if your posted your correct age). Trust me - I spoke fire and brimstone back then, too. The only difference is I didn't twist scientific facts to make them sound like they supported me more than they did. Now? It HAS come to pass. You probably can't buy a pure albino cornsnake any longer. My fears BECAME reality. Hybrid dangers were and are real.

You want to know the truth? Cornsnakes in captivity are almost all hybrids at this point. I don't care about them any longer. Indifference? Sure -whatever you want to call it. I say we are reaping what we sowed, we deserve what we get, and to hell with all of it. If cornsnakes still had a chance at being pure in captivity, I would be there with you calling these abominations against nature. I used the term 10 years ago when I saw my first scaleless Pituophis. Really. Now? What the heck? Captive cornsnakes are nothing more than hybrids. You can't do worse to them than that. Does it make it wright? No, but it doesn't make it any WORSE.

If the snakes have no obvious signs of discomfort in proper captive settings, then I don't see a problem since, well, cornsnakes in captivity are already as screwed up as it can possibly get! Anythign else is just Lagniappe at this point. Pissing in a Superfund site isn't good, but it sure won't cause any more damage!

...and , by the way, most of your conclusions hold as much water as the arguments liberals use to say guns cause crime: none at all.

Click to expand...

I was reading through this and though I am aware of the hybridization in cornsnakes, I kept waiting to come to the point you were supposed to make about WHAT exactly you were afraid of...
You just want them to be pure? I don't even think the "pure" cornsnake you envision exists, right?
Was there something I was missing where the hybridization was detrimental?
Other than that, I agree that if they don't seem to be under stress with this condition, (like we could tell, truly. If the snake acts the same as another snake who has scales, I assume that's what we'll be calling "normal" behavior... I assume owners and breeders will have to supply us with that information if they haven't already.) ... then there really shouldn't be a problem.

BTW.... brunettes > redheads

Javen said:

BTW.... brunettes > redheads

Click to expand...

I agree. Redheads make up about 5% of the human population. Brunettes, of course, are a dime a dozen. Soooo, they DO outnumber redheads. I just prefer quality over quantity.

Relax - I'm just kidding. My wife has brown hair. I have nothing against brunettes. I picked her for her "brains & personality." (Mike - if you are still reading this, don't comment!)

Besides, who would want to marry someone with such an obvious genetic defect (i.e., redheads)? Yuck. Besides, my wife knows that I'd only leave her for TWIN redheads. One would just be tempting. :crazy02:

The hybrid issue and concerns just aren't worth the effort to argue it any longer. The damage (if you see it as a damage as I certainly do from almost every aspect) is already done. I just used it here because it is a MUCH more valuable analogy than the "antibiotic" crap. Too many people don't care about their animals except as pets in a cage today for me to waste my time even discussing it. If people don't care that I can't get pure corns (for whatever reason I feel it is important), then I am not going to convince them otherwise. So, yes, I'm not answering you because (1) it isn't part of this thread and (2) I've said it all too many times before. I feel like an old man when it comes to this discussion. I apologize to you.

KJUN said:

I agree. Redheads make up about 5% of the human population. Brunettes, of course, are a dime a dozen. Soooo, they DO outnumber redheads. I just prefer quality over quantity.

Relax - I'm just kidding. My wife has brown hair. I have nothing against brunettes. I picked her for her "brains & personality." (Mike - if you are still reading this, don't comment!)

Besides, who would want to marry someone with such an obvious genetic defect (i.e., redheads)? Yuck. Besides, my wife knows that I'd only leave her for TWIN redheads. One would just be tempting. :crazy02:

The hybrid issue and concerns just aren't worth the effort to argue it any longer. The damage (if you see it as a damage as I certainly do from almost every aspect) is already done. I just used it here because it is a MUCH more valuable analogy than the "antibiotic" crap. Too many people don't care about their animals except as pets in a cage today for me to waste my time even discussing it. If people don't care that I can't get pure corns (for whatever reason I feel it is important), then I am not going to convince them otherwise. So, yes, I'm not answering you because (1) it isn't part of this thread and (2) I've said it all too many times before. I feel like an old man when it comes to this discussion. I apologize to you.

Click to expand...

It's not an issue. My questions were satisfied anyway.

@KJUN
Just some minor thoughts:

a) Selective breeding for humans (redheads..) is a very bad example since it may be ethically problematic. Should people with a genetic chance of giving birth to disabled children be allowed to have children? You are opening pandoras box with that one!

b) There are risks for these animals, documented risks, disablings, maybe long term problems with the kidney because of the fluid things and so on. People are comparing these animals to dogs like these handbag aliens featured by Paris Hilton. The question is, should we take the risk of disabled animals just because other animals are bred that way? Am I allowed go to the person I dislike that works next to me, punch the **** out of his face and afterwards tell him that people in Kenia are currently killem them with cutlasses because they dislike each other?
Just because other breeders do worse, do breed Hibirds, do breed disabled animals does not excuse us from our ethical responsibility.

Why are so many people here stating that one should breed them as long as there is no proof of these animals suffering from their disability instead of declining to breed such animals until it is proven that they do not suffer from their disability? Would any of us take medication that hasn't been tested yet and, thus, doesn't show negative effects? Why not take it until there problems are reported. I tell you, people wouldn't - it's their own health, their own feeelings and not just a snake that has to look cool and produce some expensive offspring.
Proof for problems has been given, but one can close ones eyes, believe a commercial breeder like a lemming that these animals are healthy and hoping that at some time, people are as blind for their disabled animals as Chihuahua, ... breeders are.

Greetings
Michael

KJUN said:

I've been through this with hybrids probably before you were old enough to own your first snake (if your posted your correct age). Trust me - I spoke fire and brimstone back then, too. The only difference is I didn't twist scientific facts to make them sound like they supported me more than they did. Now? It HAS come to pass. You probably can't buy a pure albino cornsnake any longer. My fears BECAME reality. Hybrid dangers were and are real.

You want to know the truth? Cornsnakes in captivity are almost all hybrids at this point. I don't care about them any longer. Indifference? Sure -whatever you want to call it. I say we are reaping what we sowed, we deserve what we get, and to hell with all of it. If cornsnakes still had a chance at being pure in captivity, I would be there with you calling these abominations against nature. I used the term 10 years ago when I saw my first scaleless Pituophis. Really. Now? What the heck? Captive cornsnakes are nothing more than hybrids. You can't do worse to them than that. Does it make it wright? No, but it doesn't make it any WORSE.

If the snakes have no obvious signs of discomfort in proper captive settings, then I don't see a problem since, well, cornsnakes in captivity are already as screwed up as it can possibly get! Anythign else is just Lagniappe at this point. Pissing in a Superfund site isn't good, but it sure won't cause any more damage!

...and , by the way, most of your conclusions hold as much water as the arguments liberals use to say guns cause crime: none at all.

Click to expand...

You patronize me because you're 9 years older than me? Are you serious?

You are delusional if you think that your life-time holds -any- weight, or proof in the greater scheme of things. Even if you have been keeping snakes since you were born, I am sorry to say- that's still NOTHING. You are just one human being, I suggest you get down from your high horse and realize that no- you have not and will not experience everything there is to experience so you alone hold absolutely zero authority on the matter even if you were a 100 years of age.

The idiotic remarks about my arguments do little to counter them, you are simply huffing and puffing because you don't like them- you have every right to. But you cannot debase them- people smarter than you and I have been researching the physical function of the scales.

It is also a fact that you can prolong agony in an insulated enough habitat- the fact that one keeps breathing does not mean he is not suffering.

You insist on looking at this as a singularity- wake up. This is not the only field in which people have started to fool around without knowing what they are doing and ended up making things worse. It happened before and it will happen again. Your insistence that caution should be thrown to the wind because it's all doomed anyways, I will never agree with it.

Progression without caution will lead to stagnation, it is a fact of life which we have proven over and over again. You wish to close your eyes and ears, you prefer to disregard these options. Statistically the odds for such events to occur are slim, but you basically have a limitless amount of chances for it to occur. Somewhere along the line, something will happen- because that's how it is.

At any rate, I wouldn't mind continuing a debate if you kept your arguments to the matter at hand rather than try to be condescending with the "older than thou" remark. You can criticize the way I think- debase my argument, not me. Else I see no point to this discussion

Menhir said:

a) Selective breeding for humans (redheads..) is a very bad example since it may be ethically problematic.

Click to expand...

I agree completely. I know the analogy was moronic. I just used it hoping, through sarcasm, people would realize the stupidity of the analogies they were using. Most of the analogies I've used in this thread were in response to someone comparing scaleless snakes to antibiotics.......lol

Kokopelli said:

I see no point to this discussion

Click to expand...

See, we can agree.

KJUN said:

I know the analogy was moronic. I just used it hoping, through sarcasm, people would realize the stupidity of the analogies they were using.

Click to expand...

I think analogies with humans are not that stupid in this discussion, especially when it comes to ethical reasons for not breeding snakes with a documented high potential of suffering from a disability. Following this discussion, it seems there is no ethic as long as its about non-screaming, non-crying animals that mean money and prestige.
And this, imho, is the sad thing about the whole thread. I would love to have a critical discussion including some biologists etc. on the scaleless property. But I am sad that we are discussing to breed whether these animals or not, while our common sense should tell us not to breed such "things".

Oh btw. I agree that it won't have any effect me posting these things. People will breed them, people will find their excuses, examples of happy scaleless corns living savely in a deli cup. But - my mind feels much better this way.

Michael

Menhir said:

I would love to have a critical discussion including some biologists etc. on the scaleless property.

Click to expand...

The problem is simple: there is no doubt that these animals are not suitable for the wild. Period. I agree with that. If they "suffer" in captivity, then there is no doubt I'd consider it evil to breed them as pets. NO DOUBT. If someone could explain the NEW threat that these pose to wild animals - assuming they were produced in captivity in great numbers - I might consider these the next great sin, too. I don't want vagaries - I want to know what the perceived danger could possibly be. I haven't heard any that could hold water.

HOWEVER, if they do not suffer under CAPTIVE conditions or pose no realistic NEW threat, I see them as no different from the color morphs we breed - and you own - that are NOT suitable for survival in nature. NOTE: I'm not saying color morphs or right or wrong - just that I see these as no different given my above stipulations. Yes, these snakes do lose water a little faster, but an albino would die faster in natural light. BOTH conditions are not necessarily a concern in captivity. If either one was, then I don't think many people would want to reproduce either line.

Take albinos - they do good in captivity, so I see no reason to kill them all and stop breeding them. Talk calicos - those animals DO suffer/die young in ways that can't be combated with captive care. Those are not generally accepted, and I know that I think maintaining that trait in captivity is WRONG. The question, for me, is where does this new trait fit: with albino or with calico. It fits with one. If a person says they are ALL wrong, I can respect that opinion and discuss the issue.

I've never MEANT that the trait is safe to breed. I've just stuck by my premise that IF they don't suffer in captive settings, then I don't see it any worse than albinism. If they DO suffer, then I see it as bad as calico.

Funny thing is that the people that have owned most of these say they see NO SIGNS of problems. It is the people that haven't owned one saying that they suffer.....lol. granted, both sides are likely biased, but I think that means I will continue to reserve my final decision (always pending revision) until I can verify the thoughts on BOTH sides of the coin. If I am evil for not rejecting them out of hand based on a LACK of data, I guess i'll just spend eternity making pranks with Loki then.

KJ

Menhir said:

@KJUN
Just some minor thoughts:

a) Selective breeding for humans (redheads..) is a very bad example since it may be ethically problematic. Should people with a genetic chance of giving birth to disabled children be allowed to have children? You are opening pandoras box with that one!

b) There are risks for these animals, documented risks, disablings, maybe long term problems with the kidney because of the fluid things and so on. People are comparing these animals to dogs like these handbag aliens featured by Paris Hilton. The question is, should we take the risk of disabled animals just because other animals are bred that way? Am I allowed go to the person I dislike that works next to me, punch the **** out of his face and afterwards tell him that people in Kenia are currently killem them with cutlasses because they dislike each other?
Just because other breeders do worse, do breed Hibirds, do breed disabled animals does not excuse us from our ethical responsibility.

Why are so many people here stating that one should breed them as long as there is no proof of these animals suffering from their disability instead of declining to breed such animals until it is proven that they do not suffer from their disability? Would any of us take medication that hasn't been tested yet and, thus, doesn't show negative effects? Why not take it until there problems are reported. I tell you, people wouldn't - it's their own health, their own feeelings and not just a snake that has to look cool and produce some expensive offspring.
Proof for problems has been given, but one can close ones eyes, believe a commercial breeder like a lemming that these animals are healthy and hoping that at some time, people are as blind for their disabled animals as Chihuahua, ... breeders are.

Greetings
Michael

Click to expand...

Nice lavender in your avatar, Michael. Have you ever read this thread?:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54404&highlight=lavender

In that thread, a member speculates on the lavender gene and the increased physiological problems associated with neural crest mutations in animals. Rich Z, who has produced more lavenders than anyone I'd guess, provides anecdotal evidence to support the idea that lavenders are more prone to spinal deformity (i.e., kinking) than any other snakes he's worked with. I've seen the same thing in my own hatchling production, and I've heard the same thing from other breeders. Do you continue to breed them? If so, then who's your lemming leader, Michael?

It's clear that you don't like chihuahuas, Michael. Chihuahua haters always bring up Paris Hilton, because she's a reprehensible person. I don't have time to look up what logical fallacy that argument represents. I'm not really a chi enthusiast, and I don't plan on breeding them, but I own one-- and I'll tell you that he's a dog-- 100%. He's no less of a dog (except in mass) than your hip-dysplasia suffering labs, or your twisty-intestined great danes, or any other breed. He's certainly no "handbag alien" any more than your lav is an "avatar alien". Humans have been selectively modifying animals for a long time, man. It's not always right, but I personally don't need to consult "Menhir's list of acceptable modified species" before I make purchasing or breeding decisions.

See that's another issue... I don't believe any single person can prove something like that. Scientifically speaking, pigmentation should not effect skeletal structure. Definitive answers will only be obtained through research.

All I am saying is this- avoid pushing the envelope constantly, if you do decide to breed something, be ready to face the consequences. I don't believe people will stop looking for new morphs altogether. But here's a positive example I feel:
I bought a Durango mt kingsnake, I wanted to breed him and so I bought a female adult Mexicana integrate(so I was told). I paid around... 500-600$ on her.
Now I learned that she is in fact a cross between a Thayeri and Arizona mt kingsnake- a hybrid.
Even though I spent quite a bit of money, I refuse to breed her to the Durango- to me it seems like too wild a bet.
I hope to find another snake who shares her bloodline(another hybrid such as her) and only then will I breed those two.

I am all for progression, it's just that you also have to mind the cost. Something which people aren't doing. They just want the next cool thing