Release or Euthanize Cornsnakes? What's your opinion?

Shiari, I believe that research they have done on reptiles indicates that CO2 isn't a good euthanasia method for them.

I can find articles for reference, if you'd like, but otherwise, I agree with you

I would like that research on that method, yes please. All I know with CO2 at least is that if there's a concentration, small things that enter that area fall over pretty quickly. Reptiles are not my forte with regards to complete biological knowledge so if they react different to high carbon dioxide levels, I'd love to learn about it.

http://www2.creighton.edu/fileadmin/user/ResearchCompliance/IACUC/forms/Euthanasia_Guidelines.htm

From what I see here, it can be used, but then has to be followed by a physical means after prolonged exposure...

My favorite part of this, of course, is that freezing is NOT an acceptable method!!

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

More stuff on proper methods.

Okay, now everyone stop posting for a minute so I can get this post out there! lol

First things first... To reply to Dar (do you mind being called Dar?)... I really don't want to debate kinks here, I've seen this topic get really heated as it is a very controversial issue. But I do think that severe deformities (and I do mean severe) should not be allowed to continue on.

I do agree though and think that what you said about being on the extreme end is absolutely true. I was trying to say the same thing myself and it didn't really come out so good. :awcrap: I do believe that euthanization should only occure when there are no more options available. When it is obvious the animal can go no farther and is just in pain/suffering/has no quality of life then it must be ended peacefully. So kudos there!

Shiari... You make some excellent points. I like that you gave us some ideas on what exactly some of these conditions can cause and how they can make an animal feel towards death... that might help people see that it's not fun and games, that it's a terrible thing to have to suffer through until death.

But I do agree with Dar... CO2 is not recommended for reptiles from what I have been told and read. Straight out freezing is not recommended either. Whenever I hear of experienced folks doing this they first place the snake in the refridgerator to induce a coma and then into the freezer to finish the deed.

And from the link provided:

Cooling may be used to decrease activity in animals prior to euthanasia, but the temperature must be no lower than that normally experienced by the species. Freezing a conscious animal is not permissible, except when small animals are flash frozen in liquid nitrogen.

Click to expand...

As for taking them to the vet for euthanization... well, Vets are expensive and if you can do it at home for free.... Especially if you have more than one animal that needs to go down (say you breed a pair of snakes for the first time and half the clutch comes out deformed, or you have no success with non-feeders and have several of them that are beyond hope...) having that kind of money isn't a reality for people. You know a problem I run into a lot is even having money to see the Vet at all when my animals are sick. I've known some Vets that refuse to see you at all unless you can pay upfront. If your animal dies, oh well. Kind of a sucky deal. :shrugs: But that's another debate for another time.

EDIT: That's not to say that I don't take them to the Vet. When my dog got sick last fall I sold off a lot of stuff to get the money to take her to the Vet. I don't neglect my pets.

Darcy is fine, it is my name But Dar will work... lol

part of the problem with newer members being involved in this discussion is that they HAVEN'T seen the kinking controversy. They may, possibly, think all kinked snakes are put in the freezer.

And honestly, some breeders do.

One thing I didn't touch on... sickness. What kind of sickness? Respiratory? Localized infection? something for which a vet would almost HAVE to be involved... where is the line?

Part of the problem here is that everyone's lines are in different places, and everyone's methods are different.

I think part of what we are combating here is the feeling that snakes are wild animals, and to an extent, they ARE, even in captivity. However, their tendency to not become lovely like your pet cat doesn't mean they are not an artificially *created* and maintained animal for which we are responsible. WE put their parents together. WE incubated the eggs. WE provide food. Is it not also our responsibility to provide medical care, optimum housing, and humane death since WE are responsible for their very existence in their current form?

At what point do they again become a *wild animal* that needs to have *nature take its course*? Why does it revert back to this when the alternative is... expensive?

This is part of the same issue with feeding live versus frozen/thawed! Either you are maintaining a *wild animal* in captivity IN PREPARATION FOR RELEASE, and therefore maintaining its wild instincts, or you are practicing your obligation to provide the best life for your CAPTIVE animal in the OPTIMUM fashion possible.

This bizarre combination of the two boggles my mind.

Painfully obvious is another question to face.. How many hatchlings actually survive the first few monthes when they enter their lives in the wild.. How many baby corns get pecked to by some hungry crow? Thats got to be painful.. *shrugs* How many corns find their way into the reaches of milks and kings? Wanna know why corns generally have a load of eggs? Its because they are the guppies of the snake world.. Everything eats them..

I am not a hugh fan of Darwin, but I have a firm grasp of my perspective of nature.. Its far more brutal than anything I have seen in my fridge or freezer, which does help provide a natural meal for some other snake eatters.. I have no enjoyment about killing any animal, however I also accept that not everything is not meant to survive and not everything turns out as eye candy..

Regards.> Tim of T and J

I totally agree with what you just said. I think that sums up a lot of how I feel on the topic.

Darcy, I think you have some good points, too. Personally if I acquired the animal, I feed it, care for it, etc it is NOT a wild creature that can just be placed back into the outdoors. But I think for so many of us agreeing on this topic and having said alot of things already, that right now we're just kind of beating the dead horse.

If nothing else, I hope it makes people THINK about it, even ones who agree with aspects of what we've said.

Presentation of information is never without merit, even if those who disagreed are not posting their dissent at the time.

Too many posts to go through, but I sure hope somebody learns the difference between anesthetically and aesthetically. Makes a bit of a difference.

Any veterinarian or naturalist or ecologist or forestry employee or wildlife biologist or other educated type with knowledge about wildlife will be absolutely against releasing ANY pet animal into the wild. Our cornsnakes have been bred in captivity for many generations now and they don't belong in the wild under any circumstances. And to release an animal that is diseased or that may carry genetic defects? That's even more irresponsible.

Rotach said:

I bring myself back here again. This thread seems to not want to die. To each, his own. Never would you catch me putting any snake in the freezer for any reason, if you have a sick snake, I'm all about doing your best to care for it, and letting nature take it's course. Not doing your best to care for it, then freezing it to death in your freezer. Sounds ubsurd to me.

If the animal is native to the area you live in, let the creature go and wish it the best. That is what I would do and no bullsh%t is going to convince me otherwise. PERIOD.

Click to expand...

So you would set a cornsnake dying of cryptosporidiosis free into the wild population to infect every other snake and lizard native to that area, and possibly even humans (no 100% guarantee that Cryptosporidium serpentis can not or will not infect a non-reptile)?

Susan said:

MohrSnakes For Moderator #4!

Click to expand...

starsevol said:

I second this!

Click to expand...

Em Wright said:

Wow... yeah, I'll 3rd it.

Click to expand...

WOW....maybe a new campaign is in order.......

elrojo said:

My understanding was that in addition to trespassing, the Jeep driving goons who patrol Okeetee would have you charged with collection of wildlife. I never looked at the legislation, but never had any reason to doubt it. It seems like an old member on this forum went to jail for hunting Okeetee. I'd try a search, but have a feeling that there are a few thousand hits for any keyword I can think of.

Click to expand...

In that scenario I would agree with you. I believe the way it would be handled is trespassing would be the primary offense and then because one was trespassing, they could slap you with additional violations as technically you were poaching wildlife from private land and there are some protections for that kind of thing.





AND....snakes should almost never be released! There are obvious exceptions of re-introduction of species of concern but that is for universities and wildlife organizatinos to handle, not Joe Q. Public. Not now, not ever!

Rotach has frustrated many people in this thread with his childish behavior, myself included. To call everyone's opinions bullsh%t is plain rude, especially when those opinions are also coming from members with an extraordinary amount of experience.
I just hope all your snakes do very well Rotach, so you never have to release a sick/malformed one in the wild. Maybe one day you will grow a pair and you'll start dealing with your problems instead of turning away from them.

jpccusa said:

Maybe one day you will grow a pair

Click to expand...

Yea, now that's what I'm talking about.

It is against the law to release a captive bred snake into the wild in most states. It is things like this that bring restrictions and laws against this hobby. Anyone who would release a captive bred snake into the wild is an idiot and, in my eyes, shouldn't be owning a snake in the first place. This sort of thing is happening in Florida right now. There are Retics and Burms loose in the Everglades that is now having an impact on the natural fauna of that state. There have been so many releases of Boas in Florida that they have bred and now are almost considered their own sub-species while a Boa is not indigenous to Florida. If everyone who didn't want to deal with a sick/non-feeding snake or just didn't want the snake released them into the wild there would eventually be an over population and I am pretty sure it would have an effect on the natural fauna. As I stated earlier it is already happening in Florida with other species of snakes. This is one of the main reasons local and national Government wants to and has made restrictions/laws about keeping and breeding snakes and reptiles. Euthanization is the way to go. I don't mean to just stick it in the freezer as that is not euthanization that is just killing/abusing the snake.
Rotach, if you are condoning this kind of behavior you should really think long and hard about keeping snakes in the first place. It is behavior like this that is making it harder and harder for people to have/keep/breed snakes and reptiles. You should really rethink this point of view.
Jay

jpccusa, why don't you take a look back into this thread where you were attempting to get under my skin by continuing to call me out. If I've frustrated anyone here, it's because I don'r have the heart to freeze to death an animal because it's not pretty to look at.

If I had an animal that wasn't eating and becoming rather thin.. I would do my absolute best help it to heal. As a last resort, I would release the animal into the wild. I don't care what any responsible, ecologist, forest ranger, McDonald's employee or local adult store sales person would do. My snakes! My decision!

You got these people on here who are getting so hot and bothered by those you would release rather then euthanize. It's bonkers. Calm down. Relax. I understand to believe in something so fierce that you get really upset but were not talking about the war in Iraq. Were talking about letting a ill snake go into the wild, where they are from! It's unnatural that they are in our hands as pets to begin with. Let alone to be put into a freezer.

When giraffs are dying in Africa do you know where they go? They go down to the waterhole to die, not the freezer.

And what the hell is jpccusa talking about when he says "deal with your problems instead of turning away from them" listen homey, I have no problems.. I hear what you had to say, disagree with it.. and now I have nothing more to talk about. Thats it.

Look, one of the Mods here need to do something about this, ahem, guy. I remember being banned for a 24 hour period because I used profanity and "personally" attacked another member. I have read this thread from beginning to end and he has used profanity several times and threatened to punch someone in the face. Where do we draw the line? I have been a paying contributor to this site for a few years now and I got banned (deservedly so, uncontested on my part as I earned it). This guy has been here a couple of weeks and nothing? Just doesn't sound right to me. No I'm not playing the "Old poor pity me" card but you need to be consistent. Fair is fair. Rules are rules. Correct me if I am wrong.
Back on topic. There is nothing that we are going to do or say to make this, ahem, guy to change his mind about the fact that he is truly wrong. There are reasons why there are laws and restrictions placed upon this hobby and most of it is due to the ignorance like he is hoarding/possessing. He just doesn't get it and probably never will. Remind me to never sell a snake to this ignoramus. It is people like this that are ruining this hobby and are sure to be the main contributor to it's demise.
Jay

If it's SO horribly unnatural then perhaps you should just get rid of your snakes now? Why keep them at all if that is really your stand point?

Genetically altered Cornsnakes do NOT come from the wild. Their ancestors, yeah sure they did, but when you have snakes that for MANY of generations have NEVER known what it is like to be a wild creature it's completely different.

And NOBODY here is saying that they'd just euthanize their snakes because they didn't come out the right color. Nobody EVER said that in this debate.

I have to agree with JP on this... you have some issues, mate. I just do not understand how you can continue to have such an outlandish idea when it is clearly a very irresponsible thing to do. You have people with YEARS of experience herping that are saying it is extremely wrong and could have dire consequences and yet you refuse to reconsider your standpoint?

As for your comparison to giraffes... well that's a bit of a stretch. Giraffes in Africa are not usually kept as pets in the United States and any seen in zoos WOULD be euthanized humanely were they to become ill (and there was nothing that could be done for them). I can garauntee you that not a single self respecting zoo would send the giraffe back to Africa in a crate so that it could "die naturally". It's just plain absurd. I'm sorry I mean no offense, but that's just the only word I can think of to describe it.

As for it being your decision....nobody is trying to say it isn't. We ARE saying that it's your responibility to make a proper and right decision. And do keep in mind that there IS the option of taking the snake to a Vet to be euthanized, which is probably the best way to do it!

Rotach, honestly, I want to type a long, thought out reply indicating, in simple, polite terms, why I believe that not only is it more than "My snakes, my decision" but against the basic precepts of animal rearing and husbandry.

But I cannot seem to get past the incomprehensible babble my head creates when presented with bizarre stances about animals like yours. I am reminded of PETA, and other organizations who release DOMESTICATED animals, let alone captive born and bred members of native species, into the wild. "It's natures way" they say. "They should be free" they trumpet.

At this point, my opinion would be... you, and others with your viewpoints, shouldn't be maintaining animals in captivity to begin with.

At the behest of your local fauna, I respectfully request that you relinquish your animals to a trusted individual so as to take the temptation for unlawful and potentially damaging behavior out of your hands.

To all those who were enjoying other aspects of this discussion I apologize.