FAQ: Normal or Okeetee??

My better half, Jen, has kindly helped me illistrate the difference between a normal and an okeetee. This is one of the questions I see that is frequently asked. I hope this can help the new comers see the differnce..

Regards T and J

one problem

I'm am not trying to start a fight or argument, I am just continuing the okeetee debate that has been ongoing for years.
We can discuss this until we are all bored to death or have said all we have to say. That would be great and enjoyable.
But, please please let's not let it digresses to personal attacks, name calling or non-related personal agendas.
I want to throw the following in and let's see where we go from there....
If it was captured anywhere within the "okeetee zone" (hunt club) which is up for debate anyway, or if it has ancestry traced to animals from the okeetee zone then it is an okeetee. So, just because it doesn't meet the standard "look" does not mean it can not be an okeetee.
There are many snakes that have been caught in the middle of the Hunt club that could, by definition, only be called okeetees but look as plain Jane as they come.
Now, if you are talking "okeetee phase", then it doesn't necessarily have "true" okeetee blood but has been selectively bred for the outstanding characteristics of the okeetee. Thick black borders, deep red saddles, bright orange background.
So, a sight test or quick assessment by looking can not and will not always be truly accurate.

what would you (you as in anyone reading this thread) call these three?




Jimmy
(Draybar)

If you notice, the describtion said Okeetee phase.. Refering to the thick black borders and not the local where the animals ancestors may or may not have came from... I did not post it for debate, rahter for simple refenernce to what has long been known and acceptted in the hobby as the "Okeetee" phase. So no, I won't debate you, exspecially in an FAQ thread.

Regards

ok no problem

but I will make one little point.
Abbots are okeetees
not okeetee phase

TandJ said:

If you notice, the describtion said Okeetee phase.. Refering to the thick black borders and not the local where the animals ancestors may or may not have came from... I did not post it for debate, rahter for simple refenernce to what has long been known and acceptted in the hobby as the "Okeetee" phase. So no, I won't debate you, exspecially in an FAQ thread.

Regards

Click to expand...

If the diagram is meant to only describe Okeetee-Phase, I think you should drop the "Abbott's" from the description. Since the Abbott's are derived from original locality stock, and are not just "phase", the name could invite confusion. I think Jimmy's points about the different, and sometimes controversial, uses of the name "Okeetee" should be part of any FAQ concerning the term.

(Just my $.02.)

Point taken Dean and Jimmy.

Although I have no understanding why the terminology of "phase" seems imperative? Maybe this is where some of the confusion comes up for the masses, and apparently for me at this point too. Okeetee phase makes the same sense to me as Miami phase is used. Does the Okeetee have to come from the Okeetee hunt club to be considered an Okeetee? Does the Miami have to come from Dade County to be considered a Miami? What is the difference?

Please don't think I am being a snot, but for my own reference I looked up "phase" on Websters online dictionary. To me it seems to fit with my understanding with what an okeetee really is. :shrugs:

http://www.webster.com/dictionary/Phase

5 : an individual or subgroup distinguishably different in appearance or behavior from the norm of the group to which it belongs; also : the distinguishing peculiarity

That seems to fit the description the nearest I can tell.. :shrugs:


To me it appears to be cut and dried. Do I think Jimmy's being controversial? Not to me, nor do I think Dean is eithier. I was simply trying to point out the differences of between a normal and ( in this case an Abott's ) okeetee colouration and saddle borders, and thats all.. :shrugs:


I guess this is something that has had tempers flairing and arguments a brewing in the Corn snake world for many years. I am not looking for a fight, I was just hoping that someone some wheres would actually find what I posted as useful is all, non debatable.. :shrugs:

Regards

that is the point

For some reason Miami's have never had this problem.
Miami phase or Miami, it seems either works.
I think this is because they were given the Miami name simply to help give an indication as to the general area of Florida (South East) and not specifically meant to mean they were caught in Miami.
I'm not really sure, though. Hopefully some of the Miami specialists can tell us why there never really has been a distinction between actual local and look in Miamis.

BUT when it comes to the okeetee there are at least two schools of thought.
To be an okeetee it has to have lineage traced to the okeetee hunt club. The true boundaries of this are always in conflict.
Either way, it has to be traceable to the hunt club to be an okeetee.
Then there is the okeetee phase. Just selective bred to look like the best description of the okeetee snakes. Thick black borders, bright red saddles, bright orange background.
There is a difference.
Abbott breeds true okeetees. Snakes that have ancestry to the Hunt club area in South Carolina.
They are not okeetee phase. They are okeetee.
To call them okeetee phase would be an insult to many who keep "true" okeetees and have loyalty to locale specifics.
So, when the question is asked....Is this a normal or okeetee?
The answer is not as simple as, "that looks like an okeetee so it is" or "that doesn't look like an okeetee so it isn't."
There are deeper thoughts and issues to determine if it is okeetee or okeetee phase.
I personally feel that if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and walks like a duck ,it is a duck, but my feelings have nothing to do with the two or should I say many sides to the okeetee discussion.
If you have two perfect examples of what an okeetee should look like, one from the hunt club and one produced independently in Missouri would there be any way to tell the difference?
Would one be any more or less valuable (especially if you didn't know where they were from)?
Would one produce offspring any more or less spectacular then the other?
I would say no to all of these but like I said, my opinion doesn't count when you take the views, opinions and beliefs of the "true" okeetee keepers, breeders and enthusiasts.
I hope that makes since and I also hope we can get more input.
I know this issue has been driven into the ground but it is always good to bring some of these old issues back to light on occasion. It gives newer people to the hobby a chance to learn.
Kind of like the need to bring up co-habitation on a semi regular basis.

Oh yeah,
Let me add this. You are right in that I am not trying to start a controversy or attck you. I really don't mean to. Like I said above I think the answer unfortunately goes deeper then your diagram.
Sorry.

As for that, and this is important to the context of you original post.
If I posted those original three pictures in a thread " Are these okeetees or are these normals?"
Using your guide, how would you answer that to each snake?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I just want to know how it would work.

Jimmy is completely right. It's like champagne. It can only be called champagne if it's from Champagne France. Anything else is called sparkling wine. For those of us who have locality specific animals such as I do, it does make a difference whether they are true Okeetees, or Okeetee phase (Lookatees). I will be breeding my 3 locality animals in order to continue the pure lines back to Okeetee Hunt Club stock. That was the point of purchasing them. My Aztec that I'm breeding to my amel is an average normal looking snake with an Aztec pattern. She is out of pure locality stock as well, but the father was a reverse Okeetee. She doesn't look like an Okeetee, but she does have the bloodlines. Jimmy is correct in that Okeetee's are normals and there were probably loads of normals on the Hunt Club property that looked like any other normal. These markings were favored though, and they attempted to find more with the same traits from that area. I like the comparison photo, but I would take the Abbot's name off there to make it easier for people to understand the term Okeetee phase.

Well Jimmy, you made great points. I am certainly in no position to argue that.. Now that you made it clear about what the train of thought(s) is. Now the issue becomes to remove the thread, because who can actually prove whats what then? I for one, don't like to intentionally mislead people, sure I can make a small change to the illistration, pointing out the Abbott is not a phase rather than a true Okeetee. In reality it would only solve one issue, that the Abbott is not a phase, rather a true Okeetee.

I think one of the biggest issues comes down to the name being used because of an expressed trait, where the other side is screaming that it is neccessarily an expressed rather than a local. I totally agee with you Jimmy, a duck is a duck. A lot of people call it as they see it..

What is the common concensous then? I don't think there is one, as it is a heated debate ( well not this one anyways, I always like to try and learn something, even if it makes no sense to my logic :bang: ) and there seems to be one side pitted against the other, on a term that is often flung around loosely.. I know I am not the only who shares this line of thought eithier.

I think this has been posted in the wrong area of the forum, unfortunantly we can't move it eithier. Would like to see more ideas, opinions and general concensous on the idea of an "Okeetee" even though I realize the subject certainly gets beaten to death more often then most would like to see.

Regards

I won't take the Abbot's off of the Illistration. I purchased the animal as an Abbott's Okeetee. The "error" came from adding the phase in, and that is the only part that will be removed just to qwell the folks who are insulted, although like I said, was unitentional error on my part.

Regards

Now if you hit the refresh button on your browser, you will see that there has been a change..

Regards

If need be, I can direct intrested parties to the people I purchased the animal from, and from my best understanding this Abbott came from the Daytona show from a breeder on the east coast and brought back to So Cal to be sold at the their store...

Regards

TandJ said:

If need be, I can direct intrested parties to the people I purchased the animal from, and from my best understanding this Abbott came from the Daytona show from a breeder on the east coast and brought back to So Cal to be sold at the their store...

Regards

Click to expand...

If this comment is directed at me, I apologize for not making myself clear. I only suggested that you remove the "Abbott's" text from the graphic. I have no problem believing that the Okeetee in the graphic is an Abbott's.

Uh, not trying to be an ass here, but....

First off, the rules on this forum state for the moderator to be the only one creating new posts. That doesn't bother me because the photo is definitely helpful with the noob questions regarding what is an okeetee and what isn't.

Secondly, this is not the place for this. Arguing about what is or is not an okeetee does not belong on a FAQ development thread.

Would you guys mind taking it to the Morphs section?

Its not really directed at anyone Dean, I am sorry if it sounded snippity, its just that I get kind of cranky when people seem to doubt my integrity. I would not ever represent an animal in a deceptive way intentionally, which is why ( after it being pointed out that "phase" is not accpeted terminology ) I had the "phase" reference removed.. I figured if anyone wanted ( not just you, Jimmy, or Meg ) to know where and how I got the animal I would be more than willing to provide the information is all, if there was any refutes to my claim on this animal.. So no Dean, it was not directed anyone personally, I just don't need anyone to ever think they need to be questionable of myself or J for that matter..

Regards

I think Locality snakes are a 'subset' of whatever phase you are discussing. For example, all Locality Okeetees are 'Okeetee phase', but not all Okeetee phase are Locality Okeetees. Saying Locality just takes it one step further. There are plenty of people working with Locality Okeetees, Locality Miamis, etc. It's not correct to say everybody has decided Locality doesn't matter anymore (for Corns.)

And for the second time, the FAQ development area is not open for discussion or debate on the locality versus phase argument.

Thanks.

It seems like it would be an obvious FAQ....

"What is the difference between Phase and Locality?"

Not "What makes a REAL Okeetee?" or whatever some people want to debate and argue about.

The answer to the difference between Phase and Locality is simple and leaves no room for debate.

For the 3rd time, this is not the place.

Only the moderator should make original posts, and I let it slide because it was beneficial.

It then spiraled into a debate over the locality versus look---and I didn't want that to happen on this forum---it is NOT the place. I kindly asked that it be moved to the genetics forum, where it belongs.

Since people can't seem to get the hint, I'll just squash it---and I hate to do it, but again....not the place.