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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Ultra Mystery...
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Old 07-31-2004, 01:50 PM   #81
SODERBERGD
proof . .

Joe, I didn't have time to read your entire book "grin" , but I'll get back to it when I have more time.

You asked the question something like "how much more proof do we need?". Well, for instance, when these babies this year mature, some may not exhibit what we expect from ultras. Maybe some will be hypos that resemble ultras. Also, how many of us are pretty sure hypo wasn't in the animals we bred to ultras, but can't be 100% sure? As we all know, hypo (like other non phenotypic traits) could be hiding in a snake for many generations until you breed it to just the right snake to manifest them. I would never presume that the females I bred are positively not het. for one of the hypo genes out there. There appears to be a phenotypic look for the ultra, but just as I have seen black on some of them and white on others, are we sure there aren't some ultras that don't fully have this "look"? Ones that could pass for the other hypo snakes?

Again, I will know more after seeing some of these grow up. Are they classic hypos OR ultras? My problem is that I've never seen an adult ultra. I have adult ultra motleys, but as we all know, motley usually exacerbates the colors and hypo mechanism in most colors. I've seen the ultra ambers in pictures. Does anyone have several pictures of regular ultras and hypos together? I don't mean just their best examples. I'd like to some more of these before deciding which hypos I have here. Is there a look that definitely distinguishes an ultra from a different hypo? If not, we'd better slow down. I don't think we serve anyone by being this eager to name these and later have to change our stories. It's not like a book is holding the presses for our collective opinion. As some have suggested, an interum name is fine. I think since ultra has been used to date, it should still be used. Then, if a change is necessary, it'll be the final one in 2005 or 2006 instead of yet another "name of the month" for this snake.
 
Old 07-31-2004, 02:03 PM   #82
Rich Z
Actually I have three adults (2 males, and one female) of what Mike Falcon sold to me as "Ultra Hypomelanistics", which are not Motleys. I bred my GoldDust (Ultra Caramel) male to the female Ultra this season and am waiting on the eggs to hatch. The males have been bred to different cultivars over the years, and it is the new definition of what we are really working with that might clear up at least part of the confusing things I have seen.

As time allows (getting pretty hard to come by lately) I will post pics. But getting photos of those adults is going to be pretty difficult to do. They would absolutely try to eat my camera in the attempt. They have a pretty pronounced feed response, to say the least. One of the males can just about stand on the tip of his tail to reach up to grab a meal (or a hand that looks like one to him).

Has anyone else gotten the uncomfortable feeling that we are just seeing more of the tip of the iceberg that is only just giving us a glimmer of just how BIG this berg is?
 
Old 07-31-2004, 02:27 PM   #83
elaphe4herps
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z
Has anyone else gotten the uncomfortable feeling that we are just seeing more of the tip of the iceberg that is only just giving us a glimmer of just how BIG this berg is?
YAH! I feel like what we know is a speck of sand on the entire continent of antarctica!
 
Old 07-31-2004, 02:49 PM   #84
Serpwidgets
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint Boyer
Not trying to be nit picky but is this possible?
If my understanding is correct, there can only be 2 alleles at one locus making it impossible to have 2 amel and one Ultra at the same location.
Am I on the right track here?
Yes, but that's the point... she's trying to come up with ways to disprove it. If you can create snakes proven to have 3 alleles at what we think is one locus, you can (probably) throw out the alleles theory. (Aren't there "XXY" humans? Heh... there's always a loophole. )
 
Old 07-31-2004, 05:05 PM   #85
ecreipeoj
Quote:
Originally Posted by SODERBERGD
Joe, I didn't have time to read your entire book "grin" , but I'll get back to it when I have more time.
Now, it is only five teensy weensy paragraphs and is only 466 words. It wouldn’t even qualify as a short essay.

Your response is right behind mine at 372 words and a very nice page in the book we are just beginning to write.

Let us assume that the Ultra and Amel genes are alleles. What does this mean to us? How will it effect our breedings? Is the Ultra a Hypo type gene or Amel type? The combo seems to produce a Hypo phenotype corn that is extreme.

If the implausible explanations for these odd results comes to be true and they are not alleles, no harm has been done. We are discussing a theory and everybody has their own position on what the evidence means. I personally do not know why so many people are afraid to state a theory that may be proven wrong. I don’t see why they should be labeled by someone as a fool. This forum is the perfect place for fresh ideas to be discussed. I am surprised that this has not come up before. The light apparently just did not come on. It only takes the light to come on in one persons mind to let other see the light.

This theory is very interesting, but I am personally more interested in what the Ultra gene will do when combined with other morphs other than Amel. The Ultramels combined with other morphs may prove to be interesting, but a distinctive look is needed for a morph to catch on and be desirable. If this theory is true, then it may only provide us with information to explain the results within clutches when the Ultra and Amel genes are involved. It would be very interesting to see if the Ultras, Homo Ultra, Hypos and Hypos can be picked out of a clutch that contains the three, like Rich’s results with the Sunkissed and Hypo double het breedings.

We have always thought that the Ultras were an extreme form of hypomelanism, but from what I have seen from photos of Plain Jane Ultras, they are not any more extreme than other hypos. The extreme Ultras that we have been referring to are perhaps the Ultramels that are in fact, perhaps, maybe, more than likely, half Amel, so no wonder they resemble Amels.
 
Old 07-31-2004, 05:44 PM   #86
Serpwidgets
I agree 100% with Joe. (In fact, we've been on the same wavelength through this whole thread.)

The whole point of trying to discover/define stuff as Mendelian traits is so we can use that knowledge to make reasonable predictions about their offspring. If our predictions are reasonably accurate, then we benefit from our "knowledge," even if we are later proven "wrong."
 
Old 07-31-2004, 05:53 PM   #87
SODERBERGD
agreed

I guess I missed where someone was arguing with that logic. I too want to get to the bottom of this, but if we hastily identify this incorrectly, do-overs are in order. I'm saying I recognize that most of my new snakes that were sired by my ultra motley are different from my "classic" hypos, but I'm not prepared to say they're the result of the new gene. I just think this study isn't double blind with the unknown elements involved. I'm obviously old fashioned in wanting more evidence before going to the extent of giving something a name. I've seen so many instances of rushing into things and getting them wrong. It'd be nice if a couple more folks come forth with their results if they're sure of the heritage of their lines.
 
Old 07-31-2004, 06:51 PM   #88
paulh
Quote:
Originally Posted by ecreipeoj
Let us assume that the Ultra and Amel genes are alleles. What does this mean to us? How will it effect our breedings? Is the Ultra a Hypo type gene or Amel type? The combo seems to produce a Hypo phenotype corn that is extreme.
IMHO, it is more productive to group mutants by locus rather than by appearance. Because alleles may have sonewhat different effects, but they are affecting the same biochemical mechanism. The amelanistic mutant apparantly produces a nonfunctional version of the tyrosinase enzyme. If the ultrahypo mutant is an allele of amelanistic, then it is probably producing a functional tyrosinase enzyme that doesn't work as well as the normal tyrosinase enzyme.

I would love to see "tyrosinase positive albino" expunged from the language. People seem to think it means something. At most it means that we think the tyrosinase enzyme is working normally, but we don't have a clue as to what is not working right.

The classic test for allelism is to cross a pure breeding individual or individuals of one strain to pure breeding representatives of the other strain. If any normal babies pop out, then allelism is disproved.

This assumes that both mutants are recessive to the normal allele. If one or both is dominant to the normal allele, the breeding is more complicated.

Problem is that ultrahypo has been crossed with so many other things that it seems pretty hard to get any that don't have other mutants mixed in.

IMHO, get 100 non-amelanistic babies from assorted ultrahypo x amelanistic matings. If none of them is normal at the a locus, then we'd have good evidence of allelism.
 
Old 07-31-2004, 07:20 PM   #89
Kat
Quote:
Yes, but that's the point... she's trying to come up with ways to disprove it.
Exactly.

Quote:
IMHO, get 100 non-amelanistic babies from assorted ultrahypo x amelanistic matings. If none of them is normal at the a locus, then we'd have good evidence of allelism.
Agreed... if we get take some double-homozygous ultras and breed them to amels, that'll prove one way or another whether we're dealing with an allele or just some gene that has affects on genes in other loci. The trick is finding some double-homozygous ultras...

-Kat
 
Old 07-31-2004, 07:50 PM   #90
Clint Boyer
I'm with you guys on most of this stuff.

This one has me stumped though:
Quote:
If you can create snakes proven to have 3 alleles at what we think is one locus, you can (probably) throw out the alleles theory.
How can this be proven?
 

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