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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

hybrids vs. nonhybrids
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Old 03-08-2008, 11:19 AM   #1
nlt71
hybrids vs. nonhybrids

How can a tell a hybrid (corn/emoryi) from a full cornsnake? I have a rootbeer and creamsicle. To me, they look pretty much like my other corns. I have another one that has the same colors as my creamsicle, but I've noticed that some amels look very similar to the creamsicle (amel hybrid--right?).

What are some things that I should look for?

Thanks
 
Old 03-09-2008, 08:38 AM   #2
Ssthisto
The problem is that it's very difficult to tell Emoryi crosses (especially high-corn-content ones) from normal corns.

Great Plains Ratsnakes are pretty closely related to corns anyway - if you imagine a tree, with each species as the tip of a branch, GPRs and corns are probably offshoots of the same twig, which branched off of the other eastern-North-America ratsnakes (the Obsoletas). That makes it very difficult to say "If it looks like this it's absolutely a hybrid, but if it looks like that it isn't."

My personal rule is:

If it is described as having a hybrid parent, or if it was described as a hybrid itself, it doesn't matter whether it ACTUALLY is - it should be treated as though it was because it has reasonable doubt. If an amelanistic cornsnake-looking animal has a "creamsicle" parent, that makes the amel a Creamsicle no matter how much like a corn it looks.

Now, there are certain things that make me think "that's an obsoleta cross" if I see them in a North American Ratsnake - the 'ratsnake eyebrows', certain colours and patterns like a yellow belly on a visually striped animal...

I'm almost of the mind that we should say "From 2008, all cornsnake-like animals with no non-Pantherophis-genus heritage currently in captivity should be called Pantherophis familiaris (and given an appropriate new common name - North American Ratsnake?) unless both of their parents can be traced to wild-caught known-locality animals." That includes animals of emoryi or obsoleta heritage but NOT animals with Lampropeltis or Pituophis heritage - a Jungle or Turbo Corn still isn't a corn snake. Get rid of the "What if Ultra came from Grey Ratsnakes or Leucistic from Texas Rats or Stripe came from Everglades or Beeblebrox came from Mexican Night Snakes" stigma - if we're all breeding domesticated Ratsnakes it shouldn't matter too much; if we want pure corn snakes, then having animals that trace back to wild-caught locality animals should be reasonable too. Could be just me - if you're interested in keeping the animals for the colours and patterns in morph ratsnakes, does it matter whether they're pure guttattus as long as they're pure North American Ratsnake? If so, why?
 
Old 03-09-2008, 09:25 AM   #3
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssthisto View Post
does it matter whether they're pure guttattus as long as they're pure North American Ratsnake? If so, why?
Isn't that a little hypocritical? If you don't care about them being pure cornsnake, why do you care if they have genes from outside of the NA ratsnake-complex? In my eyes, either you care it is pure or you don't.

What is the difference betyween a cornsnake hybrid qith 10% Cal-King in it (for example) and one with 20% obsoleta? Both are hybrids. What is the difference between one and the other if the hybrid thing doesn't bother you?

I don't like any hybrids, but I now I've been in the minority since people started collecting snakes like stamps instead of keeping them to admire functioning portions of the ecosystem. I just can't see why you are saying hybrids are OK....as long as they are just limited to a mix of certain species. I'd love your explanation, though.

Thanks in advance,
KJ
 
Old 03-09-2008, 10:09 AM   #4
batwrangler
Quote:
Originally Posted by KJUN View Post
Isn't that a little hypocritical? If you don't care about them being pure cornsnake, why do you care if they have genes from outside of the NA ratsnake-complex? In my eyes, either you care it is pure or you don't.

What is the difference betyween a cornsnake hybrid qith 10% Cal-King in it (for example) and one with 20% obsoleta? Both are hybrids. What is the difference between one and the other if the hybrid thing doesn't bother you?
It's not at all hypocritical: Corn and rat snakes belong to the same genus. NA corn/rat species are so closely related that species now recognized as separate were orginally classed as regional subspecies. They naturally interbreed where their ranges overlap.

This is not the case with snake species from other genera than Pantherophis (formerly Elaphe).

Also, it is verging on ridiculous to insist that an animal with 1% or less rat "blood" is the same as one with 50% or more rat "blood": "They are both hybids"; "Any snake with any amount of emoryi in its background is a hybrid"; "Any snake with any known emoryi ancester, no matter how far back must be labeled as a hybrid".
 
Old 03-09-2008, 10:24 AM   #5
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by batwrangler View Post
It's not at all hypocritical: Corn and rat snakes belong to the same genus. NA corn/rat species are so closely related that species now recognized as separate were orginally classed as regional subspecies. They naturally interbreed where their ranges overlap.
So, you ignore the mounding data that says guttata is more different from obsoleta that obsoleta is from the current definition of Pituophis? Not to sound like a butt, but if you ignore large chunks of data, then you CAN draw any conclusion you want. PLUS, what about the resurgence of the idea that All the rats, fox, pine, bull, and gophersnakes belong in the same genus? There is no doubt that obsoleta and guttata are NOT as closely related as morphology originally lead people to believe.

PLUS, there is mounding data to support the hypothesis that has been going around for at least 2 decades to my personal knowledge that the ratsnakes are a very paraphyletic genus! That makes your entire argument crumble (if in fact this is true as many taxonomists currently believe), but that is irrelevant. Pituophis and Elaphe - regardless of the name you use - are sister taxa. Why do you arbitrarily say genus-level hybrids are OK to group together without record-keeping, but tribe-level hybrids aren't

I admitted I don't like hybrids - 1% or 50%. I don't have to bother explaining why I feel so personally, but YOU, on the other hand, projected a possible new way of doing business for ALL of us. I'm asking for justification of the basis for that supposition. I'm NOT asking why you personally think hybrids are OK - I don't care. I'm asking why you think it is OK, under your proposed system that makes no sense to me, to arbitrarily pick a paraphyletic genus for the "OK" level and not, for example, a tribe (or higher taxa) that is more likely to be monophyletic. At least THAT would have a meaning I could understand.

Really - I'm not arguing with your proposition - I'm asking for explanation on why you support the premise. I believe that is a fair question.

KJ
 
Old 03-09-2008, 10:29 AM   #6
patm1313
This is going to turn into a hybrid war...
 
Old 03-09-2008, 10:35 AM   #7
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by patm1313 View Post
This is going to turn into a hybrid war...
This post helped how exactly how???? If you don't have anything to add new, don't try to START trouble, please.

I hope it doesn't. A premise was made. I'm asking for justification of the premise. I don't care if hybrids are good or bad. I don't like them. i believe the poster does. NONE OF THIS MATTERS IN THIS ARGUMENT.

I just want support of his premise. The poster seems to want the idea to catch on, so I'm giving the poster a chance to convince me his premise makes sense. This isn't an argument or even a debate (yet) - it is a request for knowledge and an explanation. It's an opportunity.

KJ
 
Old 03-09-2008, 11:13 AM   #8
patm1313
I hope it dosen't too. I rather like debates on hybrids, as I own one, but I just had a feeling that it would happen. After all, the title is "Hybrids vs. Non-Hybrids".
 
Old 03-09-2008, 12:09 PM   #9
nlt71
My intention, when I started the thread, was not to start an argument. The VS. was not a bid to argue, just a short way of writing "compared to". I just want to know how to tell the difference. I have a corn that looks quite a bit like my known creamsicle. I don't have any information on the parentage since he was given to me by someone who didn't want him any more. When I compare both my creamsicle and this snake to my other cornsnakes, I don't see a lot of differences. It would be good to know when he gets old enough to breed so I can label his babies correctly.
 
Old 03-09-2008, 12:19 PM   #10
Roy Munson
Quote:
Originally Posted by patm1313 View Post
I hope it dosen't too. I rather like debates on hybrids, as I own one, but I just had a feeling that it would happen. After all, the title is "Hybrids vs. Non-Hybrids".
Well, "versus" here is used to indicate a comparison between two things. Its use isn't limited to describing the relationship between two participants in a cage-match!
 

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