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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

king snake influence in tessera morph?
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Old 01-13-2013, 11:04 AM   #21
Carpe Serpentis
JimGERcream,
I'm not sure I'm following you. You state, I won't step much deeper into the tessera thing because I believe theres a good chance they're no pure corns." Then you state you may stop breeding Tesseras.... If there are no pure corns what difference does it make if you breed Tesseras if you like Tesseras? I'd say breed what you like and if you think they are suspect keep them labeled as suspect until you have proven otherwise, but I certainly wouldn't not breed something simply because it might be a hybrid. Homo sapiens might be a hybrid with neanderthal genes in our midst.
 
Old 01-13-2013, 11:10 AM   #22
DMong
I think Joe must have been dreaming as his fingers were typing. That's absolutely absurd. I have never seen ANY Cal. king influence or hybrid markers from ANY foreign entity whatsoever.


~Doug
 
Old 01-13-2013, 11:23 AM   #23
chris68
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMong View Post
I think Joe must have been dreaming as his fingers were typing. That's absolutely absurd. I have never seen ANY Cal. king influence or hybrid markers from ANY foreign entity whatsoever.


~Doug
I'd hoped you'd chime in Doug. Knowing your stance on purity issues and your knowledge in working with various snakes I was really looking for a "skeptics" pov
 
Old 01-13-2013, 11:25 AM   #24
JimGERcream
@Carpe Serpentis

I like the look of them but I don't like to breed things which may not be that what they seem to be. That's the reason why I never stepped into the Ultra thing although there are some screaming morphs. "Pure" (at least as pure as possible) corns are more important to me than just the look. A solution could be just to sell the tessera offspring, so everyone knows what to expect. I won't sell the nontesseras of those breedings I think. I pretty sure would have stopped breeding them without the hybrid theory, so that is not the only reason. Atm Tesseras are getting a bit on my nerves and I want to focus more on my other projects like sunkissed ghostblood, hypo sunkissed kastanie, stargazer tests and some pied stuff. Tesseras were a just for fun project of mine just from the beginning, so it won't hurt me if I won't breed them in the future. I just want my Ghostblood Tessera, if I'm lucky enough to get one this year, I'll keep it and won't start any new Tessera projects.
 
Old 01-13-2013, 11:36 AM   #25
chris68
FWIW I as a small time casual hobbyist/breeder don't have near the experience of working with various NA colubrids, pure and possible crosses, to even have anything more/less than opinion on Hybrids, let alone hybrid markers. I don't know Joe enough to know if he does either. I have my opinion of Joe, never having dealt with him. I have an opinion on Tessera's, having seen several and keeping one that I traded...Enough folks have grumbled online and off (theres a large offline presence in the hobby btw) that as ridiculous as it may seem needs to be discussed because let's be honest, he's going to sell ALOT of Tessera's at that price...Wanna doubt I couldn't privately message him and get 5 or more for under a hundred bucks each? Anyone?
 
Old 01-13-2013, 12:02 PM   #26
dave partington
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell Mulks View Post
Every animal and every transaction I've had with Joe has been nothing but top notch. His animals are superb, the genetics exquisite, and his customer service superb.

Only when KJ bred the animals that he purchased that he realized that the gene might be dominant and that this might be a new corn gene.

The stripe gene of the cal king is dominant in it's inheritance.

Secondarily, the hybrid markers that Joe points out should not be so easily dismissed. I've spent the last decade of my collegiate career investigating the heritable components of the aposematic pattern of the California mtn kingsnake. Part of my graduate work involved a large-scale breeding study where I purposely bred subspecies of the CA mountain kingsnake to one another. Even between subspecies there were noticeable hybrid markers in the ventral patterns of the offspring. Because cal kings and corns do share a common ancestor, but have evolved in separate directions for millions of years, it should be expected that sister chromosomes heterozygous for each parental species should produce a multitude of phenotypes. This is exactly what you see in tessera hatchlings; in particular the ventral patterns of tessera offspring.

People love hybridizing snakes, and the hybridization of corns and kings has been occurring for decades.

With recessively inherited genes you need two snakes, each of which carries a copy of the gene in order for 1/4 of the progeny to phenotypically exhibit the mutation in question. However, with a dominant gene like the tessera gene, only one of the breeders needs to carry the gene and half of the offspring are expected to express the gene phenotypically. It's commonplace for dominant genes to take a serious nose-dive in value once established breeding colonies exist in the herp trade; simply because 1/2 the breeders are necessary to produce the morph and twice the number of hatchlings exhibit the mutation. It makes sense that lasting high prices of tessera morphs are simply unrealistic. Think about this, it's easier to produce tesseras than it is to produce amels. In addition, if you're trying to produce tesseras you can expect twice as many tesseras than amels too! In reality very soon a run-of-the-mill tessera should be very cheap to buy (I see $40-$50 within two years) while only the brand new tessera morph combos should hold any value.

I guess I ask all of you to simply look at all the evidence, and if you do so non-biased, it seems to me that all the evidence (historical, morphological, developmental, and genetically) supports tesseras arising from a hybrid event rather than a brand new dominant gene popping up out of nowhere in a classified ad.

I've had with him since this thread has gone up (as I haven't spoken to Joe in months).

Anyhow, thanks for reading my thoughts, and I hope all of you the best. Regardless of it's origins, tesseras are here to stay.

Mitch

Mitch, thanks for the good read and brain food. One of the top 10 critters in the snakeroom came from Joe, Kate Moss, an ultramel, which he now states is a hybrid. I got her back when that BOI thread was getting a lot of posts, and against the advice of many persons. I have never been disappointed with a purchase from Joe. Feelings about the ad are another matter. I have my doubts the majority of the ad viewers are going to see threads concerning this matter on other sites.


Some persons observe a pattern or color and define what they see as "hybrid markers".
I see "common ancestry".
If Pines, Gophers, Corns, Milks, Kings, etc- did not share common ancestry, they would not produce fertile eggs when bred together. Why do they all have blotches on their backs? Split belly scales below the vent? Round pupils? Lay eggs which all take about the same amount of time to hatch? Granted, the colors vary a little bit, the patterns vary a little bit, the outermost layers of flesh have some variation. I was not there when any wild-caught gene or trait carrying "new" snake was found or captured. If someone takes a hybrid 3/4 corn outside, set it on the ground, and leave it there, and someone else finds it, have they not just collected a new 'wild caught'?

To me it looks like 'wild-type' is an F1 dominant gene. More-so then Tessera. Because in Tess, I see degradation of the pattern, even within the F1's from the original female. Some (about 25-30%) have the full perfect unbroken stripe running the entire length of the back. Then there's the 25-35% with broken up stripe to the shattered-pattern-looking ones (not a reference to SK cinder here). They are still passed off as Tess, but if one takes into account that much of the pure tess pattern is missing, is it still a tessera just because it will fetch more money if labeled as one?
What is the outcome of 'broken-pattern-tess' X wild-type not het for another pattern?
If the parent of the broken pattern tess was a full-pattern-tess, I would expect a low percentage of the offspring to show full pattern, as with any other Line Bred or Locality trait. If one breeds an Okeetee with thick saddle borders to something unrelated, about half of the offspring have thick saddle borders. But we've been taught or learned, perhaps subconsciously, to not call that F1 dominant or co-dom.

There appear to be many repetitive patterns throughout wild snakes globally, stripes, blotches, saddles, bands, and so forth. They may have different habits, behaviors, tendencies, reproduction techniques, etc, and do not all interbreed with each other, but simply based on pattern, if they do not have common ancestry somewhere back in time, are these examples of parallel evolution (parallel intelligent design if you prefer)?

Do any of us humans who have been breeding snakes in the last century know for certain what happened during the preceding 300 million years on this planet? I may be totally wrong on all of this, which is why I often find myself pre-phrasing thoughts based on observation, with the phrase "It appears to me as if..." or "it looks to me like...", for I feel it is irresponsible to present my assumptions as facts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JimGERcream View Post
I won't step much deeper into the tessera thing because I believe there's a good chance they're no pure corns.
Have you noticed how people come in different sizes, colors, foot shapes, finger prints, hair color, tooth arrangements, bone sizes, eye color, especially when there's a population of them from a broad selection globally all living in the same geographical region? Just a few centuries ago before populations of people began moving around the planet so easily, it was much easier to have a general idea of a persons ancestry by simply looking at them. But these days, all locality types of everything are in flux. The flu, chickens, plant life, dogs, snakes, people...
One might even ask if it's ethical to breed a Rosy Rat to a Kentucky Cornsnake. If left as populations isolated from one another for 30 million more years, perhaps no fertile eggs would come from the pairing. If I want to get super-purist about it, then everything produced by mankind is man-made. How people used to define things, how they define things now, and how things will be compartmentalized in the future are all in flux.

Personally, if it helps, I blame it all on the transportation and advertising industries.

It doesn't matter who said what first, the 'Straw man" argument works both ways.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...&postcount=254
and
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...&postcount=335
 
Old 01-13-2013, 12:18 PM   #27
DMong
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris68 View Post
I'd hoped you'd chime in Doug. Knowing your stance on purity issues and your knowledge in working with various snakes I was really looking for a "skeptics" pov
Hi Chris,....hope all is well with you.

Now if these were Cal. king hybrids, and this alleged patterning of the Cal. king were really this incredibly consistent and dominating over the cornsnake's blotch/saddle phenotype as it would have to be, then why isn't there EVER the tell-tale Cal. king spot behind the head?......or the typical "fork" bifercated nuchal marking on the head/neck from the Cal. king influence?......or ever the very typical Cal. king snout, supralabial/infralabial mottling ever present???? Those are about as typical Cal. king features as you can get across their entire board!. Also, why isn't there EVER any blotched/saddled babies from any of these clutches either, like in "Jungle Corns"? Those have also been bred with countless striped Cal. kings in the past too, not just banded phenotypes. Where are all these striped Tessera-looking "Jungle corns" then too while we are at it?. Surely THEY would be around too......RIGHT? Not to mention you can get ridiculous variations of stripes, bandeds, and Newport-Long Beach phenotypes in any given clutch of Cal. kings. Where are any banded and blotched Tesseras that would surely also be produced?. In short, there is just no way they would always be so consistent if they were hybrids, especially when out-crossed to all the countless normal phenotype cornsnakes that they have.

I just don't see any of this, Chris............ I guess the divided anal plate and other scalation meristics is always corn too, yet the pattern that would be incredibly VARIABLE even with PURE Cal. king clutches is always just insanely and magically dominating here....


~Doug
 
Old 01-13-2013, 12:19 PM   #28
JimGERcream
Dave, you're 100% correct. Although e.g. I noticed a massive physique in my original Tessera female, which is much different than I've ever seen in corns. There are so much weird things about that topic floating around, I've seen f2 and f3 striped lampropeltis x guttaus crosses which looked 99,9% identical to our Tesseras (shape & colouration, phew I tell ya that was scary), if I sum it up I think there's a good chance these are in fact the results of those hybridization. I don't know if they are, neither I can prove that nor I can prove the opposite, but personally, just for me, I draw the line here. I do see the possibility, so I don't want to step deeper into that subject. I don't say these are for sure hybrids, I'm just saying personally for me the risk they are hybrids is too high for me, because I've seen and reat all the facts about it. Of course, the definition of pureness and the discussion about it is endless, but personally I don't want to breed things which MAY come from a genus crossing. I'd prefer other things since other breeders prefer other things. I love the anerythristic, hypoA, sunkissed and bloodred gene, others don't. I'll let everyone breed their Tesseras if they want to, I just found out that gene is not what I want - nothing else.
 
Old 01-13-2013, 12:29 PM   #29
Shiari
With regard to mention of saddle border thickness being passed on as a dominant gene.... Let me introduce you to the idea of tandem repeats in genetics.

http://www.nature.com/scitable/topic...ariation-40690

The saddle borders may be a tandem repeat-type situation, and the variation then seen in offspring is not due to a dominant trait, but the number of these repeats they got. Same with pied-sided, the level of diffusion, and basically *any* linebred trait.
 
Old 01-13-2013, 12:41 PM   #30
DMong
oh, and also........

Just to clarify what I stated in my earlier post above.....Sure, there are some "Jungle corns" that look very similar to Tesseras depending on what morph corns they were crossed with. But if you bred those to more normal phenotype corns, that phenotypic characteristic would immediately disappear, and you'd get plenty of very NON-Tessera phenotypes in F-1 and so on.


~Doug
 

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