Legitimate Reason Wanted

Outcast said:

I do not doubt that you have experience with snakes, but most of what you said there seems to be pure speculation. Please elaborate on the above quote, because I have never heard of any ailments or deaths from F/T.

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Because he is making it all up to explain why he chooses to feed live.

Love the Fatman

So you would suggest there is no decomp in a freezer?

army_greywolf said:

For safety reasons we supervise EVERY feeding.

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This covers one of my objections to live, but I'd already figured out you were careful with safety.

army_greywolf said:

Presentation is key, only our proven HKs (Hunter Killers) are allowed to ambush their prey, the rest are presented pray by the head, where they may make a clean safe strike and constrict before we release them to finish the job. Often the entire process takes less than three seconds after the cover has been removed. When you feed live you will notice feeding is INCREDIBLY efficient and goes faster than you expect.

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You know, the presenting it so the snake always gets a head strike is quite clever. I never would have thought of that!

army_greywolf said:

Once again I remind all you all that I have one wild caught snake that we are rehabilitating that would make very LITTLE sense to feed f/t he will always be fed live and left to his own devices to pursue his prey and make the strike. I also have another W/C snake that is a live feeder only, and two more that are extremely difficult to feed f/t and it is not worth the effort and the refusal to feeds to attempt conversion.

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Oh, if you are rehabbing a WC to return to the wild, live is really the best option. I have to agree there. I might initially offer p/k until the snake is healthy, because it doesn't need more health problems on top of the reasons that brought it into my care for rehab (if I was doing this) but once it's healthy & I'm just waiting for spring, or waiting for proper weight gain, it's got to be fed live to be able to go out & kill its own meals after release. And I can see that WC animals might not transition, so if you tried, and failed, oh well.

I'm not going to try to persuade someone like you, who isn't a sadist and IS very very careful of their snakes' wellbeing, to give up feeding live altogether. You've got snakes for whom live is the only option, even fresh p/k isn't (like the rehab to release snake).

I get the heebie jeebies about the folks who LIKE hearing the mouse die. And I worry about the ones who throw a mouse in alive and leave the house. But neither of these is you. You've thought out the reasons AND are careful to keep your snakes safe. I am not sure I agree with you that live is more nutritious. Freezer burn isn't decomp, it's dehydration. I don't agree with you that live is more nutritious than fresh p/k, how much nutrition can a rodent lose in 5 seconds? But you've clearly got snakes that WON'T take p/k, or shouldn't because they will be returning to the wild.

I do see that under some circumstances, live OR fresh p/k is as cheap or cheaper than f/t, IF you can raise your own rodents very inexpensively while still raising high quality rodents. ~You~ can do that. Dunno about people who think that dry dog food is complete nutrition for mice or rats. But for those who have the situation where they can run a rodent colony very cheaply the price could be quite favorable. For anyone who doesn't have the option of a rodent colony, but has more than 1 or 2 snakes at most, splitting an order of frozen is much more cost efficient IMHO.

I mistakenly referred to it as freezer burn, but I've had meat I found bad in the freezer before. For that I apologize for the mix up.

army_greywolf said:

So you would suggest there is no decomp in a freezer?

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Oh I am sure this would happen but damn they are still finding whole frozen Mammoths in the Tundra. And native people would still eat the meat to survive.

But yes, I will give you that it could happen but the amount of animals I keep, I get new frozen rodents shipment every 2 months or less. I rotate my stock and make sure the oldest is used up first. And trust me, I go through a lot of rodents.

tricksterpup said:

Oh I am sure this would happen but damn they are still finding whole frozen Mammoths in the Tundra. And native people would still eat the meat to survive.

But yes, I will give you that it could happen but the amount of animals I keep, I get new frozen rodents shipment every 2 months or less. I rotate my stock and make sure the oldest is used up first. And trust me, I go through a lot of rodents.

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Good point in bringing up the Mammoths.

I want to mention a friend of mine who rahabbed HOTS in Louisiana for a couple years, for obvious reasons he fed live. He also rehabbed wild caughts from Kisatchies to rat snakes and speckled kings that the exterminators removed from homes and garages that were not healthy enough to release immediately. I have plenty of experience with presentation and observation so I feel it's just as safe as anything else.

Anyways, it's been fun and I like seeing the pictures and everything but there are people here who've become hostile to Stormy and myself so were going to keep doing what works for us away from this forum from here on. I didn't expect the level of closedmindedness that I have encountered from an exotic pet website, and like most things of this nature when it stops being fun you stop doing it. So I think I'll peel myself away from the site for a while.

army_greywolf said:

Anyways, it's been fun and I like seeing the pictures and everything but there are people here who've become hostile to Stormy and myself so were going to keep doing what works for us away from this forum from here on. I didn't expect the level of closedmindedness that I have encountered from an exotic pet website, and like most things of this nature when it stops being fun you stop doing it. So I think I'll peel myself away from the site for a while.

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Sorry you feel that way.

army_greywolf said:

I mistakenly referred to it as freezer burn, but I've had meat I found bad in the freezer before. For that I apologize for the mix up.

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And what other mistakes did we make in that long speech.

Love the Fatman

Fatman608 said:

Feeding live just means you like to hear the mouse squeal it's little head off or you do not have the nerve to kill the mouse yourself.

Love the Fatman

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Do you actually believe this nonsense, or are you just trying to be inflammatory??

Love the Lolo

Lolo said:

I must be doing something wrong then, because I've had SUCH a low success rate.

I'd actually love some "magic tips," since it would make my life (not to mention the rodent's lives) easier... but this probably isn't the thread for it, so maybe we can start a new one? That seems more constructive than bashing people who feed live, don't you think? Admittedly, I'm a stubborn redhead and not all that patient - but I am willing to listen!

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I never said it was magic, nor was my post in any way "bashing" people who feed live. The title of the post was "legitimate reason wanted," and that is my legitimate reason.

The main issue I see with the OP in this lengthy, drama filled thread, is that the initial poster seems to feel that only s/he is capable of deciding what makes a legitimate reason.

If I like to feed f/t because I don't like to see an animal and suffer and die, is that legitimate? Yes.

If a second guy feeds live because he feels it provides better exercise for his snake, is that legitimate? Yes.

If another guy likes to feed live because he enjoys watching an animal die, is that legitimate? Also yes.

I may have my own opinions on these reasons, but that doesn't mean THESE reasons are any less legitimate than mine to that individual.

As far as the people who are leaving the site because of a clash of opinions in which other individuals disagreed with your point of view (sometimes vehemently) please let me know if you find an exotic pets or reptiles website in which everyone always agrees and there's no strife or dissenting opinions, and perhaps I'll join it!

Oh... wait... my last avian forum was like that. I didn't enjoy being faulted by the "happy police" for posting a thread politely disagreeing with another members support of PETA and HSUS and ended up leaving that forum and never returning.

Many frozen mice suppliers are irradiating the mice now, too. That kills all the bacteria on them.

army_greywolf said:

Anyways, it's been fun and I like seeing the pictures and everything but there are people here who've become hostile to Stormy and myself so were going to keep doing what works for us away from this forum from here on. I didn't expect the level of closedmindedness that I have encountered from an exotic pet website, and like most things of this nature when it stops being fun you stop doing it. So I think I'll peel myself away from the site for a while.

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It is your prerogative to do as you will. I'm not sure why you guys are quite so worried about what other people think anyway, if you are going to do your own thing either way.

You did ask for legitimate reasons for feeding F/T vs live, and people have given legitimate reasons. I don't think there is necessarily closed-mindedness going on, I think it is just people who are strong in their convictions on this topic. One way or the other.

Indeed, Stormy and yourself appear strong in your decision to feed live. It seems you will stick to that stance no matter the legitimate reasons given that you asked for. And that is 100% your choice. But the same goes for people on the other end of the spectrum. Can you expect that any of your reasons for feeding live will persuade any of them to change their opinions any more than their reasons to feed F/T changed yours?

So in the end what it comes down to is you gave your reasons for feeding what/how you do, everyone else gave their reasons for feeding what/how they do...and it is up to the individual to make their own ultimate decision on what they do based on the information they have

From what I have seen most people have been very open, honest, and respectful in their opinions. As for the people you feel might not fit that description...well it happens, such is life, but they are nothing to get upset over. I just find it unfortunate that you are letting a disagreement of opinions ruin your time on this forum. But if you feel the need to get away then that is your choice.

Until next time, I sincerely wish you the best of luck with all your snakes.

First. I did not make this thread to try and convert anyone either way. I made it to be informative on BOTH sides. I didnt make this thread so people can try to shove a conversion down my throat, I have enough of that from the religious nuts knocking on my door every week. Like I already said, and a few have realized this, I made it so everyone can be informed on BOTH sides of the feeding bin.

Second. I agree everyone is entitled to their own opinion. If we all did the same thing and all thought the same way, then why bother having websites like this one? There would be no need for it.

Third. I am not letting the differences in opinion ruin my experience. Infact, it is a select few who have resorted to name calling, contributing nothing at all to this topic but name calling, and making assumptions about myself and others who choose to feed live when there is no way, at all, that they can even begin to make assumptions about me, or anyone else for that matter, unless they personally know them. Which no one on here, save for one, personally knows me.

I just have one more comment. I think I read that Kathy Love was feeding some live meals to her adults in the past. I am pretty sure of that. I am sure she did it for a reason, because she thought there was a benefit. She certainly wouldn't take any unnecessary chances with her snakes. If she did it, then maybe there is something to it, under the proper conditions.

Just saying, but in defense of Stormy and army_greywolf, they strike me as very responsible herp keepers who have thought this through, and are caring for a number of snakes who will starve themselves to death if not fed live, so....

Anyway, I have enjoyed reading their posts as to WHY they do it. It's been informative. I learned for sure that they DIDN'T do it because of enjoyment of watching/hearing the rodents die, and that they don't take chances with rodents biting their snakes that can be prevented by supervision and by making sure the snake nails the rodent in the head before releasing the rodent off the feeding tongs. That's pretty smart & indicates careful thought as to what is best for their snakes has occurred. I'd say Stormy & army_greywolf have only 1 thing in common with bad live feeders. That's live food. They have engineered out most of the possible problems, and certainly don't give me the heebie jeebies or I wouldn't come back to this thread.

wstphal said:

I just have one more comment. I think I read that Kathy Love was feeding some live meals to her adults in the past. I am pretty sure of that. I am sure she did it for a reason, because she thought there was a benefit. She certainly wouldn't take any unnecessary chances with her snakes. If she did it, then maybe there is something to it, under the proper conditions.

Just saying, but in defense of Stormy and army_greywolf, they strike me as very responsible herp keepers who have thought this through, and are caring for a number of snakes who will starve themselves to death if not fed live, so....

Anyway, I have enjoyed reading their posts as to WHY they do it. It's been informative. I learned for sure that they DIDN'T do it because of enjoyment of watching/hearing the rodents die, and that they don't take chances with rodents biting their snakes that can be prevented by supervision and by making sure the snake nails the rodent in the head before releasing the rodent off the feeding tongs. That's pretty smart & indicates careful thought as to what is best for their snakes has occurred. I'd say Stormy & army_greywolf have only 1 thing in common with bad live feeders. That's live food. They have engineered out most of the possible problems, and certainly don't give me the heebie jeebies or I wouldn't come back to this thread.

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I have to agree, I know I did not think of feeding head first with tongs until they said something about it. I am glad to have that bit of info if my current live feeders decide they do not ever want to take f/t. I know I will be using that technique and I am happy for them to have said it.

Frozen thawed only... only because that is most economical and ... my wife is allergic to their dust.

used to breed and feed rats but the mrs became allergic... ended that real fast!

Emanon said:

Frozen thawed only... only because that is most economical and ... my wife is allergic to their dust.

used to breed and feed rats but the mrs became allergic... ended that real fast!

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This I can completely understand. I have bad allergies myself. Luckily the only time the dust bothers me is when we are cleaning them. Im so used to bad allergies a hour or two of feeling like that isnt much to me.