Info for would be corn breeders

Originally Posted by Nanci

They always know better. They always believe the expert at the local petshop that tells them it's okay to cohab, keep your snakes on sand, feed live, whatever.

Kind of off topic from the original subject, but this always frustrates me to no end as well. A friend of mine bought a King Snake this past summer and called me to let me know. I immediately wanted to know all of the details of how he had it set up, and of course... some basic husbandry was off.

The main problem was that he adamantly did NOT want to give the snake a hide. The guy who'd sold him the snake told him that snakes who don't have hides get used to humans and snakes who can just hide all day are aggressive.

On the first day my friend had his snake it bit him and one of his roommates. After I FINALLY convinced him to give the snake a hide, it calmed down a lot, and no longer lived up to its name, "Bitey".

The main point that finally got my friend to veer from the bad advice the shop keeper gave him was, "well, if the snake has been living without a hide for as long as it has been in the pet shop and it is aggressive now, obviously that method is NOT working."

Anyway, sorry for the tangent. I think people do this in all aspects of life. If the advice they get is what they want to hear, they will listen to it. If it's different from what they expected/ wanted to hear, well.. it's just easier to turn a blind's eye sometimes than to push the ego down and admit that "no, I don't know everything there is to know about this subject"..

I'd like to try breeding in three or four years. First I need to get the snakes I want to breed and grow them up. I may decide otherwise after my snakes grow up and I'm not satisfied with their growth rate, muscle tone, or some other reason. I'm sure by that time the target morph I'd like to achieve will be established and I may just can the breeding plans and get myself the snake I want. It is nice to have options in life.

One of my '10 hatchlings went to a friend who works at a zoo. Her friend, who runs the reptile house there, told her not to give a corn a water bowl...that they will only drink droplets of water, if misted regularly. I refused to sell her a corn until she agreed to use a water bowl.

Be very careful who you take advice from...

Money??? Did someone say "You can make money by breeding corns?" Hmm... Heck I thought we were all doing this BECAUSE WE LOVE THE ANIMAL. I can't speak for anyone else..but "making Money" was the last thing on the list as to why I wanted to begin breeding these AWESOME creatures. I have a day job..and a good one... . But I can't get through the day at this day job..without thinking...what would i get if i crossed this with that and that with this..etc. my goal is to own roughly 10-15 adult corns...with VERY specific genes...to work toward creating something that the world has yet to see. if that creation nets me a bit of cash..it's all good...the snakes will get the money...IE food,housing,heating etc. Can't people just be happy with working with one of god's creatures...and enjoy the mystery of thier everyday lives...and then the genetic side of things...WHOA!!! there isn't enough space on the Internet to cover the facinating world of genetics.....
All this said....
I have read every post in this thread...and consider myself "warned".
I have yet to breed my corns. i have a female that is just barely in the acceptable weight range(310grams). after talking to several people on here..one of which..was Kathy Love..(Thanks for the excellent advice kathy) I've decided to give her another year of growth, and get her in shape. kathy's advice was basically..."she'd probably be ok...BUT...if you have ANY emotional attachment to this animal...dont do it...it's better to wait." As I sat there,Thrilled that Kathy responded to me, reading this...i thought..How can I or anyone NOT have an emotional attachment to the animals that we hold,feed,water,administer medicine to..make sure they are warm enough,and wipe thier 'lil butts if need be.....Sounds like i'm raising my own kids.....and in effect...I am. money....wasnt even a thought.

Great thread! I know I haven't made any money in my few years of breeding corns. They literally eat all my profits!

But, it's a fun hobby.

I started thinking about breeding right away because I wanted particular morphs for myself that I didn't want to buy outright.

I bred my first clutch of normals as a way to test out two of my animals for common hets and as practice for later clutches where I'd actually want to keep a few hatchlings.

I've always just sold off my unwanted hatchlings for very low prices on CL, sometimes on here, and sometimes have given them away. (That said, this time around, I haven't sold even half of the single clutch I hatched last July! I've still got 7 hatchlings I'd like to sell! But, it's no big deal, really, because it's just half a clutch, and that's exactly why I don't breed much each year, so I can handle it if I need to keep them for a while.)

I certainly never had any illusions of making money on the process. If someone wants to breed right out of the gates for that reason, that's probably just stupid because it's very unlikely to happen.

But I think all the other reasons to breed--for fun, to "roll your own," etc.,--are perfectly fine reasons for newbies to want to rush into breeding. I'm glad I did. It turns out, that if breeding, picking a hold-back or two, growing them up, and doing it all again weren't a part of this hobby for me and I had all the snakes only as pets, I'd be completely bored with it.

That's not to say it always goes well and never is stressful. But I still prefer it, because I'm not bored with it.

"Roll your own." That's a good expression. I admit that I picked my snow for his high pink coloration and that I was getting an amel and anery rolled together, a good base since I can get a lot of combos out of him.

Originally Posted by desertanimal

I started thinking about breeding right away because I wanted particular morphs for myself that I didn't want to buy outright.

I bred my first clutch of normals as a way to test out two of my animals for common hets and as practice for later clutches where I'd actually want to keep a few hatchlings.

I've always just sold off my unwanted hatchlings for very low prices on CL, sometimes on here, and sometimes have given them away. (That said, this time around, I haven't sold even half of the single clutch I hatched last July! I've still got 7 hatchlings I'd like to sell! But, it's no big deal, really, because it's just half a clutch, and that's exactly why I don't breed much each year, so I can handle it if I need to keep them for a while.)

I certainly never had any illusions of making money on the process. If someone wants to breed right out of the gates for that reason, that's probably just stupid because it's very unlikely to happen.

But I think all the other reasons to breed--for fun, to "roll your own," etc.,--are perfectly fine reasons for newbies to want to rush into breeding. I'm glad I did. It turns out, that if breeding, picking a hold-back or two, growing them up, and doing it all again weren't a part of this hobby for me and I had all the snakes only as pets, I'd be completely bored with it.

That's not to say it always goes well and never is stressful. But I still prefer it, because I'm not bored with it.

Agreed! While I felt a need to make post like this, even if it probably won't help much as far as talking sense into people who think they can make money, I wasn't trying to make it sound like breeding corns is this horrible thing nobody should ever try. Just to show people there is a side of it that is hard work and that hatchlngs don't go flying off the rack as eager corn buyers line up to buy. That it makes sense to start small and see how it goes from there.
I don't do craigslist, I guess it would be OK for a one time deal- to sell one or a couple snakes on there one time but I won't do it myself. I like to use here, kingsnake.com, faunaclassified and sell at shows where snakes will be more likely to go to someone that understands their husbandry. I kind of want my snakes to go to someone that is into the snakes and not end up as some neglected pet a kid outgrows... And even if nobody really seems to care, animal sales ARE against the craigslist TOS. "Rehoming" usually means selling in the pet section though, it seems!

Originally Posted by elrojo

I've been breeding corns since 1999. To date, one season has turned a profit. But I continue to do it because I enjoy it. Though few projects have turned out like I expected, the unexpected is often rewarding in and of itself.

One aspect of breeding that needs to be considered by anyone breeding reptiles is culling. It is very difficult to produce corn snakes for monetary gain as it is, but nearly impossible when sub-par animals are summarily killed or fed off upon hatching. We can not as conscientious breeders produce and sell animals with no regard to captive lineages. The more common the morph or species, the more strict our standards should be on what is allowed to survive/ potentially produce offspring. I have a pair of striped albino cal kings that I have culled 100% of the hatchlings for the last two years, simply for nasty attitudes. Over the years, I culled nearly 100% of grayband kings I produced for not eating mice, and finally quit breeding the species. If they don't merit keeping in my collection, a long hard look has to be cast on whether they should be sold to potentially have their genes passed at all. I had to give up on a chameleon message board, because the overwhelming sentiment was "it is our responsibility to keep them ALL alive since we brought them into this world." I will dig up and post links to some of the deformed animals that people were working with. I think most would agree they should have never left the incubator. It is always unpleasant for me to take the life of an animal, and even after thousands of mice, I find killing them distasteful. But as breeders, it is something we really must do.

Dude I have to say this, and forgive me if it sounds too blunt. Maybe you should stop breeding? Cal Kings are supposed to have attitudes! That's their nature and it's part of their appeal really. They are spunky and full of vigor and yes they will try to eat your hand, lol! Graybanded Kings are Lizard eaters! They have to be tricked and coerced into taking pink mice, but it can be done with some patience. Dude you are performing genocide on your animals for behaving the way they should!

Originally Posted by Snakehead

Dude I have to say this, and forgive me if it sounds too blunt. Maybe you should stop breeding? Cal Kings are supposed to have attitudes! That's their nature and it's part of their appeal really. They are spunky and full of vigor and yes they will try to eat your hand, lol! Graybanded Kings are Lizard eaters! They have to be tricked and coerced into taking pink mice, but it can be done with some patience. Dude you are performing genocide on your animals for behaving the way they should!

First, it isn't "genocide" as he isn't killing off the entire species, just the hatchlings that do not fit his qualifications. It has just been bad luck that none in those particular clutches met his requirements.

If a breeder is selectively breeding for temperament and for food preference, culling those that don't fit those qualifications is what needs to be done. When first produced, bloodreds (I'm pretty sure it was the bloodreds, but may have been another morph) were known for being lizard eaters and refusing pinkies. It took years of selective breeding and outcrossing to produce hatchlings that would readily eat pinkies out of the egg.

I am sure there are many breeders of all snake species, that are selectively breeding for the above mentioned traits. I know I would prefer to keep those that were easier to handle and that ate pinkies right out of the egg.

And what about those hatchlings that won't eat anything offered? Is it wrong to cull them (euthanize, if you prefer) or would you rather let them suffer and starve to death? What about other deformities? Was it wrong to cull this hatchling?

"But there's a difference between physical deformities and behavior/temperament/food preference/etc." Look at it this way, if man didn't selectively breed for ALL desirable qualities, we wouldn't have ANY domestic animals. There would be no dogs as they would all still be wolves, horses would be wild, pigs would still be wild boar, cattle would still be wild, sheep, goats, fowl of all kinds, etc would all still be as their wild predecessors and we would still be hunter-gatherers.

No one is forcing you to cull anything you produce, but don't knock those that are trying to improve the cb specimens.