My Corn Is "Potty Trained"

Wow, I've been keeping reptiles for sixteen years and I've worked with hundreds of species between the two exotics specialty shops I worked in for years...and I sure wan't aware that I thought any of that garbage. Perhaps I'm not a reptile enthusiast?

MANY snakes in the pet trade can tolerate almost-daily handling. The two exotics shops I worked in were VERY hands-on with most of their animals, and it worked out fine. High stress animals were given less hands-on time, but MANY species were fine with brief handling on a daily or almost-daily basis. This was fantastic for us and our customers, since the animals were examined daily, calm and used to handling, and NOT STRESSED.

Neither store I worked in had a problem with animals going off feed or becoming sickly, so it's clear to me that the animals were not stressed by regular handling or regular soaking.

Originally Posted by Carinata

And sure Cali King sitting in your hand, that's fantastic, but does that represent all the snakes out there?

I would ask you the same question about your "experience". The number you have handled dont really make up the entire snake population. We, as scientists and hobbyists, really cant make assumptions about any animal behavior. We just havent learned enough. Its all based upon our experience, but not real proof, or real data, as its really hard to quantify animal behavior or feelings. Sometimes I think I know a certain animal behavior but when its broken down with hard data, I was actually incorrect in my assumption. We take what we want from our experience and tend to make it into what we think it should be, or we want to be. So, the best way you could have approached this thread is something like, "in my experience, you should limit how much you soak your snake because it might stress it out". That would have come across much better than your aggressive approach.

Originally Posted by Shiari

So I'm not a reptile enthusiast? Well color me carnelian, here I was sure that I am very much fond of reptiles and love learning about them and their care. In fact, one might say I'm ... enthusiastic about the subject!

And Beth isn't an ethusiast? Or Em? Or Lenny? I'll bet Nanci and Eric aren't either then!

I'll be a straight shooter too. Right now you are full of what you scoop for that flipper.

Bad use of words, many reptile enthusiasts will agree with me.

Originally Posted by ceduke

Wow, I've been keeping reptiles for sixteen years and I've worked with hundreds of species between the two exotics specialty shops I worked in for years...and I sure wan't aware that I thought any of that garbage. Perhaps I'm not a reptile enthusiast?

MANY snakes in the pet trade can tolerate almost-daily handling. The two exotics shops I worked in were VERY hands-on with most of their animals, and it worked out fine. High stress animals were given less hands-on time, but MANY species were fine with brief handling on a daily or almost-daily basis. This was fantastic for us and our customers, since the animals were examined daily, calm and used to handling, and NOT STRESSED.

Neither store I worked in had a problem with animals going off feed or becoming sickly, so it's clear to me that the animals were not stressed by regular handling or regular soaking.

All I am saying is in my experience and the people I have talked with's experience, stress can be caused by excessive handling especially if you are trying to get the snake to poop.

Originally Posted by ratsncorns

I would ask you the same question about your "experience". The number you have handled dont really make up the entire snake population. We, as scientists and hobbyists, really cant make assumptions about any animal behavior. We just havent learned enough. Its all based upon our experience, but not real proof, or real data, as its really hard to quantify animal behavior or feelings. Sometimes I think I know a certain animal behavior but when its broken down with hard data, I was actually incorrect in my assumption. We take what we want from our experience and tend to make it into what we think it should be, or we want to be. So, the best way you could have approached this thread is something like, "in my experience, you should limit how much you soak your snake because it might stress it out". That would have come across much better than your aggressive approach.

Thanks Angela, I will use this in the future.

I have to say that I think knowing any individual snake's limits as far as handling and soaking and whatever other stressors the snake may experience is MUCH more important than 'knowing' how snakes think and act as a whole.

If one keeper has two or three snakes that they are very close to and handle often, they are probably more aware (on average) of their snake's temperament and tolerance than a keeper whose time is split up between a BUNCH of snakes and doesn't get a lot of one-on-one time with individuals.

There was a time when it was like that between me and my hognose. I could bring her to work with me, take her outside, handle her for long periods. I could read her easily, and she never missed a meal or showed any signs of stress. Now, I don't handle my snakes nearly as often, so I wouldn't attempt bringing any of them to work with me or long handling sessions.

I agree that if this is to be continued we should open a new discussion thread, so this will be my last post on here (but not on the topic if you wish to continue it).

Please, show me any evidence or list any actual examples of personal observations that a snake that is used to being handled is stressed out by it, or that it is any way less healthy and "happy" than a snake that is left alone the vast majority of the time. A generalized statement without anything to back it up such as "snakes are stressed out by people/handling" won't cut it - you say you observe them and that you are taking this knowledge from personal experience and the experience of experts, so give me an example. I can give examples within my own collection and several others that support the claims I have made and will be happy to list several if you wish. In short, no snakes in my care or in the care of people I know, including people on this forum, have ever suffered negative effects from being handled properly. Yes, I know that snakes do not always display obvious signs of stress right away, but they do exhibit symptoms. They don't eat regularly, they have shedding problems, they get sick, etc. I've had snakes that were stressed out for one reason or another. Hell, most snakes are pretty stressed for a while when they change hands or move to a new location. We "reptile enthusiasts" usually know what to look for, and I see none of that with snakes that are handled and are otherwise healthy.

Here's evidence. Ever handled a snake before you fed it? Most won't eat right after,correct? Yep, that's stress.

Originally Posted by Carinata

Here's evidence. Ever handled a snake before you fed it? Most won't eat right after,correct? Yep, that's stress.

I handle all of my snakes right before I feed, even hatchlings which I let my kids handle while I'm getting the mice into the feeding containers. I normally take them right from thier hands, place them in with dinner and in most cases they are already eating the mouse before I have the lid all the way on.

Based on my experience I would say that "most if not all" do eat right after handling if they are otherwise feeding normally and healthy. On the other hand I have never noticed that not handling reticent feeders has been any extra help getting them to eat.

Two completely unrelated issues in my opinion....

Ok, those are your snakes. But why does every care sheet state, you shouldn't handle a snake before or after feeding? There's gotta be a reason.

I've never read that in a care sheet... I have only ever seen it said that you should not handle the snake AFTER feeding so as not to cause a regurge.

It would be stupid to say "don't handle before feeding" because then your only option is to feed the snake in its enclosure. My snakes eat just fine after being handled for a few minutes before being offered their dinner. And that's snakes ranging from a month old to adulthood.

Carinata, you're grasping at straws and very obviously trolling now. This conversation died last night and today you brought it back up... and only to cause further drama.

Let. It. Go.

http://www.vmsherp.com/LCNotEating.htm-How about that? I'm not trolling, I'm making my point. I was insulted and degraded last night, I'm speaking my peace.