I may as well offer some insights . . .
Giving a DIAL-UP WARNING is no longer appropriate, but I will warn you to put a soft cushion in your chair, so you may remain comfortably seated for the duration of this post. :awcrap:
I don't have time this week to read all the postings on this thread, but upon reading just the last two pages, it's clear that some people doubt the purity of the Palmetto. I don't blame them one bit. I'm sick of TV commercials that tell me their product is the biggest, the best, the most delicious, and so on - with the foregone expectation that we will all believe it because they said so. How can they all be telling the truth, when they claim that theirs is THE best?
I'm equally tired of exaggerations and lies in all facets of commerce. The premise that someone is innocent until proven guilty is quickly morphing into "he's guilty until proven innocent", and I must confess that I often prefer the latter reaction. Not because I want to believe someone is lying to me, but because in our business, most lies are committed to increase sales or profits. I tend to believe my eyes more than the words of people, but in this new age of technological trickery, the old adage
seeing is believing is no longer trustworthy. What's a buyer to do?
I'm pretty sure that several of the so-called PURE CORN MUTANTS out there are actually hybrids. No, I can't prove it, nor do I have the time or inclination to. In the absence of a DNA database for North American snakes, who can really say which snakes are species pure and which are hybrids? Sure, we have our doubts that are based on similarities of appearance. It is like looking at a dog that appears to be a German Shepherd, except for it's black spotted tongue. The first thing that comes to mind is Chow Chow - because this is a classic trait in Chow Chows, and NOT in German Shepherds. Why would anyone say that is a pure German Shepherd, if it has a black spotted tongue, and even a lazy, curling tail? I wish distinguishing such a thing in snakes was as simple as that canine example, but it's not.
Corn snakes are very closely related to their cousins, the North American Rat Snakes of the
P.obsoletus clade. Some corns have the exact scale count as the average
P.obsoletus, since the scale count ranges of both species overlap. In the absence of recognizable markings on the Palmettos, it therefore leaves us to compare anatomical and morphological similarities to the obsoletus complex. How many times have all of us said, "the stripe on that corn reminds me of a California King"? OR "the scales of this corn snake seem more keeled than most corns?" Does it follow that heavily keeled scales on corns means they are hybrids? I suppose sometimes, it does indeed turn out that they are hybrids, but not always. The head shape, texture of scales, size and body conformation of the Palmetto all match those of the corn snake.
I've seen theories on the Internet that I have been
Frankensnaking the Palmettos - via precise selective breeding for many generations - in an effort to manipulate them to have corn snake features - while retaining the shocking color feature of the alleged alien genetic donor. I imagine it follows that I would be disposing of ones that may reveal alien characteristics. Since I am keenly aware that we can no longer believe everything we see or hear, we're left to be suspicious of things that appear to be too good to be true. So, when I say that the first time I saw the Palmetto was when Parrish Coker (the man who bought it from the woman that captured it) and his friend, Paul Moody posted its picture on a popular Field Collecting Forum, I also understand that people who don't know me may suspect that I'm lying. I definitely am not lying.
As it always is in such situations, there are a few people who positively know the true origins of the Palmetto; the lady who found the snake, Parrish Coker who bought it from her, and Paul Moody who saw it and knows Parrish well enough to know that Parrish did not lie about it. Regarding my role being after all those people handled it, also knowing the truth (in addition to me) is my wife, who shared my first sight of the Palmetto when we both opened the box Daryl Camby shipped to us. Perhaps the reason most U.S. corn snake hobbyists like Joe are saying,
The history of the Palmetto’s is clearly stated on Don’s web site.
is because I have not given anyone reasons to distrust me. I realize that may of the European corn snake enthusiasts don't know me, so questioning something a shocking in appearance as the Palmetto is somewhat understandable. Most U.S. corn lovers saw the Palmetto's debut in the Field Collecting Forum before I did, so perhaps they are aware that I had never before met the persons who posted the first pictures of the Palmetto. Just as anyone who details a history of a newly discovered snake mutation cannot expect to be believed by everyone, I'm not surprised that some of you out there think this is just another lie told by someone who wants to make money selling a strikingly new snake mutation - knowing hybrids would not be popular in the marketplace. I repeat, "I totally understand".
Therefore, what are the odds that someone actually captured a white snake with colored speckles all over it, almost a meter long? I get it. The likelihood of capturing a snake with those colors - that managed to survive to adulthood in the wild - has to be something like one in a million. The suspicions that I was secretly cross-breeding generations of rat snake x corn snake hybrids, in an effort to come up with the Palmetto, are also understood, but untrue. For what it is worth, I'm swearing to all of you right now that the first time I saw this adult snake in pictures was when I was asked to look at a Field-Collecting Forum on the Internet in 2007 (or was it 2008?), and the first time I saw it in person was when it was shipped to me in May of 2009 by Daryl Camby, who bought it from Parrish Coker. Did someone lie to me about its amazing wild capture? I don't think so, and just from getting to know Parrish Coker in the past year, I believe he did not lie to me or anyone else. Also, Paul Moody swears that Parrish is not lying, and he has known him for a long time. BTW, Parrish is not a snake breeder by profession or hobby. Is that testimony enough to make people believe the Palmetto is real? Probably not, since you do not know these people (or me). I totally understand that since no corn snake has ever before been seen like this, and there was a Chocolate Chip Black Rat Snake several years ago (
I was just made aware of that a few hours ago by a friend who looked it up) that was white with virtually identically scattered color flecking, some people would naturally think the Palmetto is not a wild-caught corn snake mutant. It would be silly for me to say I'm positive, since I was not there when it was captured, but the physical features of this snake do not parallel those of other rat snake species. Since I know Parrish is not a snake breeder, I decided to pay the high price for this snake, based on all the data provided to me. Without having seen the snake in person, I relied on the testimonies of Bill Love, Daryl Camby, and several other friends who saw and handled it.
It was also brought to my attention that similar things are being said about the purity of the Tessera corn snake mutation. A young adult male Tessera was given to me by K J Lodrigue of KJUN SNAKEHAVEN in Louisiana who had been maintaining three of them for the owner - Graham Criglow - of STRANGE CARGO EXOTICS in Texas. Graham had two males and one female, so he and KJ kindly decided that Graham would give one of the males to me. A year after receiving it, I bred it to three novel corns (one common corn Het for Stripe and Amel and two sister Okeetees that were F1s of a wild-caught Okeetee from Chip Bridges' Rhett Butler Line). That year, I discovered that instead of that male being a Striped Motley Corn (what we thought it was by sight), it was actually a new mutation of genetically dominant inheritance. I've seen accusations that I "created" that mutant by pairing garter snakes to corns OR Leopard Rat Snakes to corns. If you dig into the archives of this web site, you will discover that after I showed everyone the results of my three pairings that year, someone saw several adult corns at a Kentucky Reptile Expo that looked identical to my Tesseras, except some were Amels and some were Snows. Hence, the Tessera was out there before I received mine, even though its inheritance had not yet been discovered. I told KJ that he and his wife Kasi could name the mutation, and Tessera is the name they chose - in favor of the lateral tessellated pattern they all had. The following year, KJ and Kasi reproduced some of them from the pair owned by Graham.
Do I know if they (Palmettos and Tesseras) have pure corn snake origins?
No.
Do I see any features of the Tesseras and Palmettos that indicate they are not pure Corns?
No.
Have I ever bred a Garter Snake to a Corn Snake, or know anyone who has?
No.
Have I ever bred a Leopard Rat Snake to a Corn Snake, or know of anyone who has?
No.
Have I ever bred a California King Snake to a Corn? Yes. The last time I did that was in 1997, and I continued to breed their Jungle Corn progeny until approximately 2004, when I sold all of them to a U.S. breeder. The first time I ever saw a Tessera was when KJ shipped Graham's extra male to me. They had received a reverse trio (2.1) from a seller instead of the advertised 1.2 trio on an Online snake selling web site, just before giving me the extra male.
Do I see any hybrid markers in Tesseras or Palmettos?
No.
Am I positive Tesseras and/or Palmettos are not hybrid snakes?
No. Without actually seeing the physical marriage of the parents of the snakes that produced these two mutations, how could anyone know they are pure corns or hybrid corns?
Do I know if Caramels, Lavenders, Motleys, Stripes, Cinders, Sunkissed, Bufs, Terrazzos, Charcoals, Kastanies, Dilute, Lava and others are pure corns?
No. How do any of us know if they are pure or hybrid? Some would say that none of those look so dramatically
UNCORN. Of course, not. What all the others have in common is their recognizable corn snake markings. Of course, a pattern-less snake does not resemble its' nominate form (I'm not counting the chaotic and random arrangements of color flecking - since they do not satisfy the definition of pattern). In the other camp, people will say, "I've seen similar looks in Black Rat Mutants". Those two reasons for saying this cannot be a pure corn lack one primary argumental element; factual data. If a man arrives at your home in a new suit, driving a new Maserati, carrying no tool box, and says, "I'm here to fix your toilet", do you tell him he's lying - when he says he's a plumber? Once again, I don't fault people for saying the Palmetto does not look like a corn snake. I ask that they furnish evidence of their claims that I am lying and/or evidence to prove they are indeed hybrids. Just as a pure white Ball Python is not accused of being a Leucistic Black Rat Snake hybrid, the Palmetto's appearance does not indicate it is not a pure corn snake. Most Natural experiments (genetic mutations and polygenic anomalies) are not as bold as what we see in the Palmetto, but who can argue that the non Man-made leucistic Texas Rat Snake does not look like a Texas Rat Snake. Of course, if you see red the minute you reach for it (
your blood), you'll KNOW it's a Texas Rat Snake, even though it lacks traditional color and pattern.
You Texas Rat owners out there are chuckling in agreement right now.
Some of the posts I've seen say there has been an absence of proclamation regarding the authenticity of these corn snake mutations. I don't expect my claims here today to quell suspicions about the purity of Palmettos and Tesseras, but for what it is worth, you may quote everything I'm saying in this thread, as the sworn truth - as I know it. Outside doing this, I can't imagine what proof could be offered (other than DNA comparisons) that would satisfy doubters. DNA testing is very expensive, since nDNA (
Nuclear DNA) testing is very expensive, and requires many baseline examples for comparisons. This means that dozens (if not hundreds) of known wild caught snakes from all suspect species are required, to create a database for species comparisons. I personally do not have the funds to initiate such sampling and testing. Until it becomes affordable (or when someone releases such data from scientifically initiated studies), there is no way to evaluate the purity of ANY of our corns. When it is affordable to do so, I think we may all be in for some surprises. Namely, that many of the veteran mutations in our hobby may not be purely corn snake. When such a database
and consequent testing is available and logically affordable, I'll be the first to present samples from some of the questionable mutants in our hobby. We're long overdue in making it possible to PROVE such genetic purities, in order to finally eliminate suspicions.
Finally, I pose these questions. If next year, someone shows us a jet black, pattern-less corn snake that they claim to be a pure corn snake mutation, what will you say? Will it depend on who is the presenter? Will it depend on how inexpensive it is? What proof will be required for you to accept that it is a pure corn snake? Now, imagine that it is YOU who hatches that snake, and you personally watched it emerge from the egg, presented to you from pairing two classic corn snakes? Imagine your disappointment and frustration?
Response to this post is not intended or expected. It was not designed to
convince you of the legitimacy of my claims, nor was it my intention to provide fodder to those who thrive in the spotlight of conflict and controversy. I just wanted to articulate what I know about these mutations, for those who took my lack of participation in this thread to be anything other than being too busy to deflect unfounded inuendos and accusations. I just wanted to point out that no matter how similar a new mutation is to a mutation that is common to
another species, the similarity does not inherently indicate hybridization. In another 100 years, I suspect that every mutation we're seeing in corn snakes today (and many we have not even imagined) will be represented in EVERY snake species around the world. I believe that all snakes today have a common ancestor. A theory of divergent origins is not compelling enough to indicate that different snake families evolved from entirely different patriarchs. Hence,
most of the mutations that are hiding in the genome of one snake species, are also in the genome of ALL snake species. Amelanism, Anerthrism, Axathism, Malanism, Hypomelanism, Hypermelanism, Xanthism, Erythrism, Hyper-erythrism, Leucism, and many more mutations are common - not only among reptile species and genera - but also in most (if not all) life forms on this planet. To presume that one mutant must be of hybrid origins - because it has never before been demonstrated in a respective species - is illogical. Yes, given the close genetic relationship of cousin serpent species and genera (evidenced by their willingness and genetic potential to interbreed, resulting in fertile progeny) and given the larcenous nature of some humans, it's fair to sometimes suspect foul play. But just because a new mutant looks bazaar - compared to it's nominate form - does not justify accusations of hybridization, just because someone thinks it's too bazaar to be what it's presented to be.
Don
