Culling 'side product' hatchlings

As a follow up of a thread that got locked but where I thought an interesting discussion was going on, I put up a poll here. My request is, to choose the statement that comes closest to your opinion on culling hatchlings that do not fit the breeders standards to be worked with or to be sold. Of course motivations are welcome, discussion too but please try to keep it civil so this thread won't be locked and people won't be banned

Thanks all for your input!

You forgot the poll...

And will this concern just hybrid clutches, or any pairing, even of pure/same species? And will we be limited to snakes or is any species allowed?

And thanks for bring this up again. It's a good topic of discussion!

Nope, some options were too long....

Snakes only by the way...

I have only been a snake owner for a little over a month but am already planning on buying more snakes and hopefully attempting to breed them next season.

The one thing i have thought about many times is what to do if i am ever in the position of having 'defect' hatchlings. I am not sure if i could cull them without feeling really bad about it. Obviously if i decide i could not bring myself to cull off any defect babies then i would make the decision not to begin breeding.

Thanks for the poll, will be interesting to see the results in a few days.

:cheers:

I, personally think that anyone that is getting involved in breeding of snakes should at least be aware of and willing to accept that some offspring will simply not make it. Under these circumstances, it is my opinion that sickly, deformed, chronically pained, or non-feeders that WANT to starve to death *should* be euthanized in order to limit the amount of pain and misery that would accompany those afflictions. I don't think it is responsible to get involved in the breeding of animals without at least recognizing the potential for disasterous results from inbreeding or bad practices, as well as random and genetically inherited defects that can't reasonably be predicted, without having a "plan of action" in place should you find yourself in the situation.

With that said...I also firmly believe that each person will need to draw those lines for themselves as to what would be considered reasonable culling and what wouldn't. I don't feel it is my place, nor anyone else's, for that matter, to tell another breeder what they should and shouldn't be doing with offspring they produce, so long as responsiblity, honesty, and integrity in the business and the hobby is maintained.

That means that while I personally wouldn't cull offspring because they don't meet a specific "look" criteria, I won't fault anyone that draws the line for themselves in that particular sandbox...it is, ultimately, their choice...

tyflier said:

I, personally think that anyone that is getting involved in breeding of snakes should at least be aware of and willing to accept that some offspring will simply not make it. Under these circumstances, it is my opinion that sickly, deformed, chronically pained, or non-feeders that WANT to starve to death *should* be euthanized in order to limit the amount of pain and misery that would accompany those afflictions. I don't think it is responsible to get involved in the breeding of animals without at least recognizing the potential for disasterous results from inbreeding or bad practices, as well as random and genetically inherited defects that can't reasonably be predicted, without having a "plan of action" in place should you find yourself in the situation.

With that said...I also firmly believe that each person will need to draw those lines for themselves as to what would be considered reasonable culling and what wouldn't. I don't feel it is my place, nor anyone else's, for that matter, to tell another breeder what they should and shouldn't be doing with offspring they produce, so long as responsiblity, honesty, and integrity in the business and the hobby is maintained.

That means that while I personally wouldn't cull offspring because they don't meet a specific "look" criteria, I won't fault anyone that draws the line for themselves in that particular sandbox...it is, ultimately, their choice...

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So you see no difference in ending a miserable life and ending a life worth living because it was born in the wrong clutch?

What an individual breeder decides to keep or cull from their own clutches is their own personal business. In the example of jungle corns, if the breeder only wanted to perpetuate the look of a hybrid that showed the characteristics of both the kingsnake and the cornsnake, culling those that too closely resembled either species, that is just fine by me. Doing so in hopes to prevent the possible mistaken identity of these hatchlings and therefore possibly "contaminating" the pure species is a very good thought, IMO. It may not be 100% effective, but it's got better potential than many of the current practices.

A comparison to a dog breeder culling puppies that don't fit a breed standard has been made. An example of this that I am personally familiar is with "lemon" colored German Short-haired Pointers. Way back when that breed was being created, a then well-known pointer breed was used in the mix, and that breed could produce light tan-colored pups. However, over time, that color was not allowed by the breed standard of the GSHP. But as occasionally happens, you get throw-backs. These puppies are culled by the breeder to prevent them from potentially reproducing and perpetuating that color. Yes, the breeder could sell it as a pet-quality dog with the stipulation of it being neutered/spayed so it can't reproduce. But how do you guarantee that happening? You could have a written contract, but unless you spend the time and effort to keep track of that pup and verify the owner does as the contract says, it's just a piece of paper. OK, you have it neutered/spayed yourself. Now you have invested more time and money in a pet-quality dog. How are you going to be reimbursed for that time and money? Raise the price of the dog? But who is going to spend even more money on a neutered/spayed pet-quality dog that doesn't fit the breed standard when they could get a breedable dog that does fit the breed standard for an equal price? And with snakes, you don't even have the viable option of getting them neutered/spayed.

And now lets use pure cornsnakes in an example. I'm a middle-of-the-road breeder, currently capable of producing about 200-250 hatchlings a year. I currently can produce a wide range of morphs, but most of them are middle- to lower-end morphs. Since I am the mother of 2 elementary school children and have a full-time job to help support my family, the time I have available to raise 200+ hatchlings, and sell them, is limited. In previous years, I was able to wholesale them all. Unfortunately, I no longer have that outlet and I have had to sell them myself. I am unable to attend shows because of my job and family so have had to depend upon the internet for sales. I had a difficult time trying to juggle my work-load when I had the maximum number of hatchlings still in my possession. I am seriously considering culling many of the least sellable hatchlings in order to not only reduce my work-load as well as my expense in simply raising those hatchlings, but to also be able to provide more time and effort in the remaining hatchlings. There are more than enough normal, amel and anery cornsnakes on the market. My 50 - 75 will not be missed, and my kingsnakes will be well-fed as a bonus.

Blutengel said:

So you see no difference in ending a miserable life and ending a life worth living because it was born in the wrong clutch?

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What guarantee do you have that any particular hatchling will have a life worth living? And what defines a life worth living?

Susan said:

What guarantee do you have that any particular hatchling will have a life worth living?

Click to expand...

For this and the post above, I so wish I could rep you Susan

Blutengel said:

So you see no difference in ending a miserable life and ending a life worth living because it was born in the wrong clutch?

Click to expand...

Do I see a difference? Yes, I do...which is why I opersonally would not do it at this point in my life.

That doesn't give me the right to judge someone else for making that decision for themselves.

I respect, understand, and appreciate the difficulty with which someone like Susan might make the decisions that she discussed. These are not the right decisions for me at this point, but only because I am so new to the breeding program that I currently have no plans beyond 1 or possibly 2 clutches over the next few years. Being overwhelmed is not a problem when I've chosen to severely limit my breeding program. How ever, I can still understand and respect another breeder for making those decisions for themselves. This would especially ring true with someone who was, like Susan pointed out, breeding hybrids, and a culling of any "pure looking" snakes is the only way to guarantee that there is NO future breeding potential and unscrupulous dealings made with THEIR stock.

There is another discussion going on right now regarding anerythristic "C" possibly being from hybrids/integrades. Rich is taking ALOT of flak from people(somewhere) about this, because it is ALL originating from his stock...that he sold many years ago. Is it his fault? Nope. Does he deserve a tinge on his reputation because of other people's doubts? Nope. Could it be that the opriginal snakes used to produce anery "C" were some sort of hybrid that looked pure enough to fool one of the best in the business? I'm sure it's a possibility.

Let's speak purely hypothetically for a moment. Just say that somewhere back a few years ago, some "Joe down the road" breeder starts playing around crossing different species of rat snakes with corn snakes, and "discovers" some extremely interesting results never before seen in corn snakes. The offspring LOOK like pure corns, to even "trained professionals", but the genetics are entirely new due to the crosses made. So this unscrupulous seller decides to market them as a brand new morph in the pantherophis gutattas line of snakes...even though they aren't. These things sell like hot cakes and are now found being crossed with every morph available in a mad rush to be the first to create something with these "new" recessives.

Flash forward 15 years...someone breeds some of these "new snakes", and gets offspring thoroughly unlike the rest, resembling the OTHER side of the early hybrid. What now? Now we know that it is a hybrid, but the hybridized blood has been so thoroughly distributed throughout the bloodlines of pure corns that it can never again be completely seperated out of at least several different varieties of "corn snake". Now everyone starts pitching a fit and ranting and raving about whomever they got THEIR snakes from because they are hybrids...

So yes...I can completely understand why someone with a reputation to protect would cull "pure looking" snakes from a hybrid project. I think it is a difficult decision to make for a breeder, but I also think it is an extremely responsible decision to make, as well.

Susan said:

What guarantee do you have that any particular hatchling will have a life worth living? And what defines a life worth living?

Click to expand...

I thought about that, but culling a hatchling that is not able to behave as it wants and should as a healthy corn, makes sure that one won't have a miserable life. The ones that are able to slither/climb/eat/poop and grow will at least have a reasonable chance to get the same level of decency in life as all others in good care.

I think it is ridiculous to cull animals just because some organisation decides their color does not fit the breeding standards. Any breeder should set aside money to neuter/spay the dogs in Susan's example and to sell them as pets to people who do not care about the breed anyway. Should the breeding of any breed or morph produce more 'trash bin' animals then breeders can handle, one should seriously reconsider breeding for this specific goal. Bringing life on this planet knowing you have to kill some, only for the pleasure of breeding what you think looks good, is not respectfull to animals IMO.

Just want to add my vote. Culling for health/medical reasons is acceptable, but other reasons I think are questionable at best. Personally, I feel if you can't handle the load, then you shouldn't take on the task. And I absolutely disagree with life or death being determined by the right look.

Blutengel said:

I thought about that, but culling a hatchling that is not able to behave as it wants and should as a healthy corn, makes sure that one won't have a miserable life. The ones that are able to slither/climb/eat/poop and grow will at least have a reasonable chance to get the same level of decency in life as all others in good care.

I think it is ridiculous to cull animals just because some organisation decides their color does not fit the breeding standards. Any breeder should set aside money to neuter/spay the dogs in Susan's example and to sell them as pets to people who do not care about the breed anyway. Should the breeding of any breed or morph produce more 'trash bin' animals then breeders can handle, one should seriously reconsider breeding for this specific goal. Bringing life on this planet knowing you have to kill some, only for the pleasure of breeding what you think looks good, is not respectfull to animals IMO.

Click to expand...

Blutengel--

I appreciate and respect your opinion as well. But that is what it is...an opinion, that needs to be made by each individual based on their own needs, desires, reputation, goals, stock and so many other variables that it is nearly impossible to reach even a semblence of a "concession".

There are so many "what if" questions when it comes to breeding of ANY animal, that, to me, it seems fairly ludicrous for anyone to get involved with breeding WITHOUT considering their options for euthanizing, and even for one person to try and "dictate" what is right and wrong with how others choose to do it.

I understand a love and respect for the animals. But I also understand that in some instances, this same love and respect for the animals will translate into necessary culling, whether to prevent "contamination" from unscrupulous dealers or to prevent a life of pain and misery. IMO...both of these are justifiable means.

tyflier said:

Do I see a difference? Yes, I do...which is why I opersonally would not do it at this point in my life.

That doesn't give me the right to judge someone else for making that decision for themselves.

I respect, understand, and appreciate the difficulty with which someone like Susan might make the decisions that she discussed. These are not the right decisions for me at this point, but only because I am so new to the breeding program that I currently have no plans beyond 1 or possibly 2 clutches over the next few years. Being overwhelmed is not a problem when I've chosen to severely limit my breeding program. How ever, I can still understand and respect another breeder for making those decisions for themselves. This would especially ring true with someone who was, like Susan pointed out, breeding hybrids, and a culling of any "pure looking" snakes is the only way to guarantee that there is NO future breeding potential and unscrupulous dealings made with THEIR stock.

There is another discussion going on right now regarding anerythristic "C" possibly being from hybrids/integrades. Rich is taking ALOT of flak from people(somewhere) about this, because it is ALL originating from his stock...that he sold many years ago. Is it his fault? Nope. Does he deserve a tinge on his reputation because of other people's doubts? Nope. Could it be that the opriginal snakes used to produce anery "C" were some sort of hybrid that looked pure enough to fool one of the best in the business? I'm sure it's a possibility.

Let's speak purely hypothetically for a moment. Just say that somewhere back a few years ago, some "Joe down the road" breeder starts playing around crossing different species of rat snakes with corn snakes, and "discovers" some extremely interesting results never before seen in corn snakes. The offspring LOOK like pure corns, to even "trained professionals", but the genetics are entirely new due to the crosses made. So this unscrupulous seller decides to market them as a brand new morph in the pantherophis gutattas line of snakes...even though they aren't. These things sell like hot cakes and are now found being crossed with every morph available in a mad rush to be the first to create something with these "new" recessives.

Flash forward 15 years...someone breeds some of these "new snakes", and gets offspring thoroughly unlike the rest, resembling the OTHER side of the early hybrid. What now? Now we know that it is a hybrid, but the hybridized blood has been so thoroughly distributed throughout the bloodlines of pure corns that it can never again be completely seperated out of at least several different varieties of "corn snake". Now everyone starts pitching a fit and ranting and raving about whomever they got THEIR snakes from because they are hybrids...

So yes...I can completely understand why someone with a reputation to protect would cull "pure looking" snakes from a hybrid project. I think it is a difficult decision to make for a breeder, but I also think it is an extremely responsible decision to make, as well.

Click to expand...

Any hybrid is a threat to the pure market, drawing a line culling pure looking hybrids is covering the risk with a layer of smoke. If you are a purist, you do not breed hybrids, if you are not and respect the life you brought you shoudl not just cull it for your own reputation. I know it sounds harsh, but to be honest I am a bit said about less people sharing my opinion on this, even though I am rational by nature.

You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!

And sorry for not keeping it strictly snakes.

tyflier said:

Blutengel--

I appreciate and respect your opinion as well. But that is what it is...an opinion, that needs to be made by each individual based on their own needs, desires, reputation, goals, stock and so many other variables that it is nearly impossible to reach even a semblence of a "concession".

There are so many "what if" questions when it comes to breeding of ANY animal, that, to me, it seems fairly ludicrous for anyone to get involved with breeding WITHOUT considering their options for euthanizing, and even for one person to try and "dictate" what is right and wrong with how others choose to do it.

I understand a love and respect for the animals. But I also understand that in some instances, this same love and respect for the animals will translate into necessary culling, whether to prevent "contamination" from unscrupulous dealers or to prevent a life of pain and misery. IMO...both of these are justifiable means.

Click to expand...

I think we just have a very strong difference in opinion regarding what 'necessary' means regarding this subject.

I hope I misunderstood you meant me when talking about 'dictating'? Just to be sure...

Further I do not judge people for making other choices then I would regarding this subject, but I do judge the activity of cullign hatchlings for reasons I do not agree on. I hope people see the difference and my honesty/sincerity in this.

Susan said:

You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!

And sorry for not keeping it strictly snakes.

Click to expand...

It's completely wrong, and I think just adds to the right to life (or however you want to call it) side of the debate.

And now I'll start the pool on the "they're not humans so they're less than us" post at within 10 minutes.

Susan said:

You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!

And sorry for not keeping it strictly snakes.

Click to expand...

No worries broadening the subject... but are you serious in saying; hey, if China culls redundant humen, we can breed and then cull redundant animals since we are obviously just not able to pay respect to life anyway?

If you really want to look at the ethics of culling perhaps we should first be looking at the ethics of breeding. What right do we have to breed these animals? What right do we have to bring life onto this planet just because we want to produce a pretty color or pattern? These animals have no biologic imperative to be here. We have no need for them - we have them because we want them and like them. Does that make it right to breed them, let alone own a wild animal?

So if we can somehow bypass the ethics of breeding and owning wild animals then we have no right to judge someone based on their culling practices. Until you can ethically justify breeding these animals you really have no place arguing the ethics of culling.


Joanna