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Tessera Debate

Cornparadise said:
I think we should all just stop this discussion. Nobody is going anywhere with this, we're not going to convince the handful of people who believe these animals are pure.
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I think it's worthwhile in that it explores questions people have about "what if." We all have more information now, instead of just being told "They are not hybrids because Don and KJ and Graham say so." Now we know the arguments and the rebuttals, and have more to base our opinions on.
 
mike17l said:
Just another FYI, todate: there have been no "throw back" animals produced in any tessera clutch produced by KJ or Don. Now look at champagne corns, every now and then you get some raised keels (a "throw back").
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Umm... Don't you mean that YOU, Kjun and Don haven't identified any "throwbacks" from these breedings? :shrugs: What kind of throw backs would you look for? Maybe a normal with an aberrant head pattern?

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Here's an interesting little tidbit. The more crosses in a snake the less frequent, the throwback. (Or maybe they just become harder to Id as "throwbacks") So if you cross a Creamsicle, to a Beast, and then That offspring to a Cornduran, Then those to a Frosted Ultramel, What are you going to look for, as a throwback, again?

Any ideas? So ah what do you look for in a Corn that's 6% or less European Rat?
 
Cornparadise said:
Within 1 generation a brown/green moth turned white. Why? Well the moss which covered the trees they sat on turned white due to pollution. Next year a few moths where white, the year after that ALL moths were white.
Are they hybrids too? No, it's a genetic mutation!
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That would be three generations, not one. And that is not evolution, that is survival of the fittest. SOTF drives evolution, but itself is not evolution.

Cornparadise said:
I love the Tessera morph and I have a hard time believing them to be hybrids, bred to have a garter snake pattern but all the other markers of a cornsnake. That would take at least a decade to produce and is a near impossible task.
.
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You do know that garter snakes give live birth dont you? If tesseras were a hybrid with some species of garter snake, that piece of information alone would be worth far more than many many tesseras.
 
abell, still waiting for you to identify some hybrid markers (obvious or cryptic) that you have personally identified in nontessera siblings.
 
mike17l said:
That would be three generations, not one. And that is not evolution, that is survival of the fittest. SOTF drives evolution, but itself is not evolution.
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Actually that would be 2......And SOTF doesn't change the look of a entire species in 2 generations. As I assume your not a scientist, and scientists call it an evolutionary jump. Then to me it's evolution.


mike17l said:
You do know that garter snakes give live birth dont you? If tesseras were a hybrid with some species of garter snake, that piece of information alone would be worth far more than many many tesseras.
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I'm dutch so, sorry if I get the english names mixed up. But condescending is also not necessary.

FYI; I always find it funny when people start to be condescending while the other person is in no way rude. Always tells a lot about a person's character.
 
Cornparadise said:
Actually that would be 2......And SOTF doesn't change the look of a entire species in 2 generations. As I assume your not a scientist, and scientists call it an evolutionary jump. Then to me it's evolution. .
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Cornparadise said:
Within 1 generation a brown/green moth turned white. Why? Well the moss which covered the trees they sat on turned white due to pollution(1st generation). Next year a few moths where white (2nd generation, the year after that ALL moths were white (3rd generation).
Are they hybrids too? No, it's a genetic mutation!
Click to expand...


Cornparadise said:
I'm dutch so, sorry if I get the english names mixed up. But condescending is also not necessary.

FYI; I always find it funny when people start to be condescending while the other person is in no way rude. Always tells a lot about a person's character.
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So you did or didn't know garter snakes give live birth?
 
mike17l said:
So you did or didn't know garter snakes give live birth?
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again patronizing me. Yes I did know Thamnophis gives live birth. Just not my kind of snake. Plus again I'm Dutch and don't always get the English names straight.

But then again one could be nicer to somebody :nope:
 
Cornparadise said:
again patronizing me. Yes I did know Thamnophis gives live birth. Just not my kind of snake. Plus again I'm Dutch and don't always get the English names straight.

But then again one could be nicer to somebody :nope:
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You implied that teserra was a hybrid a garter snake, I was just trying to get some clarification. :)
 
BTW Mike, evolution normally takes thousands of generations. Not 1, 2 or 3.

SOTF is NOT a scientific description, it's also incomplete and a misleading term. It doesn't convey the complexity of natural selection.
So SOTF is only a SMALL portion that drives evolution there is way way way more that comes into play.
 
mike17l said:
You implied that teserra was a hybrid a garter snake, I was just trying to get some clarification. :)
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Read my post again and you will find I said no such thing. I said that some people seem to believe genetic mutation is far more unlikely then it being a hybrid with another species just for the pattern. And then taking the time, money and determination to produce a cornsnake with that pattern. Sorry but that sound pretty unbelievable. Especially when that goal is finally reached the animals are then sold on as normal motley/striped corns at low costs.

Now what is more likely, a genetic mutation which happens every day and is as normal as the earth revolving around the sun.
Or the hybrid theory?
 
Do you even know what you are talking about.

Cornparadise said:
BTW Mike, evolution normally takes thousands of generations. Not 1, 2 or 3.

SOTF is NOT a scientific description, it's also incomplete and a misleading term. It doesn't convey the complexity of natural selection.
So SOTF is only a SMALL portion that drives evolution there is way way way more that comes into play.
Click to expand...

You are are the one that said that the change in the pepper moth was the result of evolution, I said that the change was a result of SOTF.

Cornparadise said:
Read my post again and you will find I said no such thing. I said that some people seem to believe genetic mutation is far more unlikely then it being a hybrid with another species just for the pattern. And then taking the time, money and determination to produce a cornsnake with that pattern. Sorry but that sound pretty unbelievable. Especially when that goal is finally reached the animals are then sold on as normal motley/striped corns at low costs.

Now what is more likely, a genetic mutation which happens every day and is as normal as the earth revolving around the sun.
Or the hybrid theory?
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No no, you full well implied, never said, but definitilly implied. But at this point, I really do not know what your point it.
 
How are we going to prove out whether or not its a hybrid? We can't at this point..

Regards.. Tim of T and J
 
TandJ said:
How are we going to prove out whether or not its a hybrid? We can't at this point..

Regards.. Tim of T and J
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We can not prove it one way or the others, but those that think it is a hybrid should be providing evidence for it. Maybe I missed it, but I do not think that anyone has done such. There is a lot of conjecture and opinion, but no evidence for hybridization. The burdon of proof falls on the hybrid believers.
 
Mike,... Mikey..

mike17l said:
Do you even know what you are talking about.

You are are the one that said that the change in the pepper moth was the result of evolution, I said that the change was a result of SOTF.

No no, you full well implied, never said, but definitilly implied. But at this point, I really do not know what your point it.
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TSK ...TSK... Mike... attacking someone that is trying to help your cause? Why Mike? Maybe you should think about not responding until you can comprehend what's being said?

Cornparadise, was indeed on Graham's side and trying to help, and you jumped in and attacked him like a rabid pit bull. Put the alcohol, or the key board away Mike, they aren't mixing, well.

(And don't say you weren't drinking for the love of GOD man, I'm giving you an "OUT" take it graciously and appologize to a possible future customer. {That would be Cornparadise just so you know.} I know that with all that alcohol running through your head (Nudge,Nudge,Wink,Wink) it's hard to think straight!):cheers:
 
mike17l said:
Just another FYI, todate: there have been no "throw back" animals produced in any tessera clutch produced by KJ or don. Now look at champagne corns, every now and then you get some raised keels (a "throw back").
Click to expand...

That's a really good point, Mike, that Tesseras haven't yet shown any raised keels or any other clearly non-cornsnake morphology. I don't know if there are enough of them YET, but if that persists, that would be reasonably strong evidence that Tesseras are NOT hybrids. Time will either support that or not.

The other route, of course, is to wait until there are plenty of genetic markers that can sort guttata from other colubrids that can crossbreed with guttata, then test Tesseras for other markers.
 
At this point there is an abundance of hybridized wanna be corns out there probably in all our collections without us even knowing it....seriously. Hybridization can't ever be reversed, but it can be hidden. Cross a corn and rat, raise the hatchlings into adults, breed all adults back to corns for a few generations and you have a visual cornsnake with no outward markers but the internal DNA of both:) I'm not saying tesseras are hybrids- I'm saying there are plenty of hybrids out there with no external markers:)
 
I don't know much about Tesseras, they're pretty, but not my cup of tea.

But honestly, there really isn't a way of proving they're hybrids yet. There's no point in going at each other's throats and arguing the same points over and over.

No joy in fighting with a keyboard.
 
cryptic/obvious markers

I think some markers that could be looked for would include
eye-size, nose length, scale articulation and shape,
head shape, tail length, live or egg-layer.
These are some more obvious traits to tell non-corns. Not really any value would be clutch count/size. Miamis tend have lots of eggs and smaller.
Cryptic markers could be examined for by dissection and microscopy of body fluids and organs. There would be some diffferences in genitalia. And of course DNA testing which might not be conclusive.
No throw-backs yet? What have they, 3 generations now since discovery? I fully believe it would've been reported by those working on it. They stand nothing to gain by passing off hybrids as 'pure' corns. If one pops up, it will be seen and become known. I'd've guessed there would have been a decent % already if hybrid. Not one! And although I haven't seen every of the probably 5-8 dozen Tessara hatchlings that exist (less?), they have been photographed and seen by many ppl by now.
When I look at known hybrids, even ones crossed back to corns couple gens, there are those that just have that non-corn look about them. If you look at the Tessaras, other than pattern, they look 100% as any corn.
 
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