Tessera Debate

Originally Posted by fyrefocks

Youre asking people who disagree with you to help you disprove something, all the while youre doing nothing in the way of supporting your claim. Im not the one with his panties in a bunch.

I am doing no such thing. I simply started a thread about tesseras. I'm not asking anyone to agree with me nor am I asking anyone to disprove anything. But,I know there are some out there that think they may not be true corns. THAT'S THE REASON I STARTED THE THREAD.

There is another thread for that very purpose in this section, if you had bothered to do a search for tessera.

You know the thing I've always hated about this forum? It's the fact that things get beat to death.

There have been SEVERAL people that said it didn't matter if the Tessera was a hybrid. Therefore it MUST not matter if they are hybrids or not. I won't convince you, and you ARE NOT going to convince me, (PLEASE, please, believe me, I tried to convince me, it it didn't work either.) ... So go feed the snakes you have (or whatever you care to do that will comfort you) and think pleasant thoughts. Have a beer, a smoke, a toke, whatever. Take a nap have pleasant dreams...



Stop reading here, and let it die.















But you can't can you?














Eh? Niether can I...
Alright then. Let's address some of these things, that others have said, that disturb me then shall we? Get comfy this is going to be LOOOONG!

First:

Originally Posted by RobbiesCornField

I said my piece in the other thread. I've had the chance to examine Tessera's up close and personal. In my opinion, definitely not hybrids. Again, I think anyone who cries "HYBRID" right off the bat is just jealous they didn't make the discovery. That's really what it seems to boil down to. Can you imagine what must have been thought when the first lavender's appeared on the market?....

You've met me. Do I come off as the jealous type? Let's discuss it in person some time.


Second: Shiari ...You've already been proven wrong once...

Originally Posted by Shiari

What Whoty is failing to take into consideration is that Tessera is a single genetic mutation. If it was the result of hybridisation, it wouldn't be a dominant trait, and would not pass down steadily and in such an obviously dominant fashion.

Why not? Prove it. Oh wait you were already proven wrong again there, already. Let's move on...

Originally Posted by Shiari

Ah, but are not people claiming that this pattern is the result of a corn being bred to a snake with a similar pattern? It would be like breeding a corn to a garter and expecting to get tesseras. In fact, the tessera pattern is quite common in the snake world... just doesn't tend to be a dominant trait, perse. And even if a dominant from a hybrid... the early generation "normal" offspring should carry genetic traces of that hybrid ancestor...We could easily see pictures of those animals, and I'll bet you none of them look any different from a normal corn snake.

Ah,... it's PER SE. And it is a dominant trait in Leopard Rats, or so I am led to believe. So breeding it into corns, even artificially, would help it become dominant in corns too.

Originally Posted by MohrSnakes

One thing I thought I'd mention....

Hybrid or not, it still is acting UNLIKE a recessive gene. Find me a hybrid, corn, rat, king, colubrid X that has the codom/dominant gene expression we are seeing here. I know it is in boas and ball pythons...but the only colubrids that come to mind are the ultramel (only with amel) and then those persian pied ratsnakes (or whatever they are) and there may be a south american species or two. Granted, I am not very familiar with other pet industry colubrids beyond the domestic stuff...but I'm drawing a blank.

Basically, what I'm saying is that even "IF" it was a hybrid....it is pretty cool that it does not act recessive and that it DOES act codom/dominant. I.e. it seems to be a "new" gene any way you slice it.

See above.

Originally Posted by Shiari

Burden of proof lies in the "omg it's a hibird" camp. Find me that ratsnake or king or milk species with the tessera pattern as a dominant trait. Should be fairly simple to do, yes?

Leopard rat snake ... AGAIN ...See above.
Striping in Zamenis situla is a naturally occurring form. There was a time when herpetologists though that the Striped & Blotched forms were different subspecies. The typical blotched situla were referred to as Elaphe situla var. leopardinus (Terentev & Chernov, 1949) and the striped referred to as Elaphe situla (Terentev & Chernov, 1949) or Elaphe situla var. quadrilineatus (Boulenger 1913).

Both striped and blotched situla can be found in the same areas in the wild. It also appears that you can get both occurring in the same clutch pretty much the same as with the Elaphe climacophora (striped and blotched) and Elaphe quadrivigata (melanistic and striped). The striped gene in situla is generally thought to be dominant to the Blotched, but the mode of inheritance needs to be examined further to state this with any accuracy.(Taken directly from the Ratsnake zone)
http://www.ratsnakezone.com/ratsnake...a-striped.html

Originally Posted by stephen

As a breeder who has been in this for a long while, I have seen alot of new morphs be found.Everything single new gene usually always people said hybrid.I personally dont think they are.
Its not that hard to believe that it exists (Tessera)
Think about Aztec/Zigzag corns no Motley gene there,but yet it isnt recessive.

Not yet, but if you Cross in a Mexican Night snake... Couple gens of selective breeding...Some Motley her, a mockley there...

Originally Posted by Nanci

I'm going with Don Soderberg's statement "Other than appearance, all physiology is classically cornsnake, though the pattern complex resembles that of other species (including pattern mutations in other species). Arguably, no obvious (or cryptic) hybrid markers have been observed."
...
If the original Tesseras had been hybrids, exactly _what_ would have produced them??

Yes but are they really looking? Or are they so excited by the possibility of a new gene they are blind to the otherwise obvious or cryptic markers?
In a previous post about Tesseras, Graham mentions there are no signs of them being a hybrid, other then smaller clutches and/or smaller then normal babies (Something to that effect. Whatever Graham ) Could that not in it's self be a sign of hybridization? How about if ya add in some crazy head patterns?
Any who...

Originally Posted by fyrefocks

...

Bellyache all you want, but if you really want to prove they are hybrids then you need to belly up to the bar and buy a pair. Of course it would be impossible to actually determine their origins since the latest generations would definitely be pure corn, but i think you should put your money where your mouth is.
...
In summation, suck it up and buy a pair and do your own work to discredit these fine people, or shut up and go about your day.

Umm... wouldn't it be easier to prove,( and cheaper as well) to cross a Leapard rat (or similar snake w/ a dominant trait) and a corn snake?




And lastly (saved the best for last!)

Originally Posted by StrangeCargo

Hmm- I see a BIG difference between them... one is a genetic pattern mutation and the other is missing most of it's scales
On a serious note: We ALL know that Scaless Corns are actually a CREAMSICLE corn... they are a KNOWN hybrid (the orig. scaleless popped out of a clutch between a Corn X Emoryi). ...

Yeah but both are really expensive hybrids (In my Opinion. Just my opinion, and totally unsubstantiated.)

Originally Posted by StrangeCargo

Do you have Tesseras or Scaleless corns? I DO have Scaleless Corn hets directly from BHB...I've invested in the project... I will sell them for what they are: Scaleless Creamsicle Corns and put the entire history/story on my website.

I know I'm beating a dead horse but if I had any evidence- or felt the slightest uneasiness- of the Tesseras purity, I'd be the first to admit it. I'm an honest guy with nothing to hide...

Well LA-DEE-DA! You have some really expensive hybrids. Good for You! Once AGAIN I equate scaleless snakes to furless cats and rats. Interesting to see, but I wouldn't own one. I also wouldn't pay a premium for any of them. Even with a pedigree.

On A side note: Graham, I would like to thank you, you brought it to my attention, that I was not spending enough time here so here I am. (Even bought the coin nudge, nudge!)

I like you style abell82.

Originally Posted by Shiari

There is another thread for that very purpose in this section, if you had bothered to do a search for tessera.

I did a search,but the thread died out. So,I figure i'd get another started. Especially with all the new "tessera" morphs.

Originally Posted by abell82

Umm... wouldn't it be easier to prove,( and cheaper as well) to cross a Leapard rat (or similar snake w/ a dominant trait) and a corn snake?

Since youre a stickler for proper spelling, you should know thats it leopard with an O and not an A.

And yes, it would be cheaper to go that route. Of course it might take a couple generations of breeding, inbreeding, line breeding, and selective breeding just to find a baby with the right pattern, Then youll need to do trials to prove that what you have is the same gene as tessera. But if you miss, all that work will have been for not and youll have a bunch of ugly snakes laying around. Its probably going to be easier for you to just sit there behind your screen whining about it.

BTW- ive had a smoke and a toke and im completely chill.

Originally Posted by fyrefocks

And yes, it would be cheaper to go that route. Of course it might take a couple generations of breeding, inbreeding, line breeding, and selective breeding just to find a baby with the right pattern, Then youll need to do trials to prove that what you have is the same gene as tessera. But if you miss, all that work will have been for not and youll have a bunch of ugly snakes laying around. Its probably going to be easier for you to just sit there behind your screen whining about it.

You really think that the possibility of getting that pattern out of a unlikely cross is way more likely then a new genetic morph mutation?

The thing I laughed the most at was the person saying that "we've been breeding for so long why has nobody else discovered this morph before" REALLY? OMG! Genetics aren't a set fact, it's always changing! New morphs will arrive in a 100 years from now. Mutations happen every day in EVERY species even humans.
Sometimes you even have evolution jumps in genetics, an example:

Within 1 generation a brown/green moth turned white. Why? Well the moss which covered the trees they sat on turned white due to pollution. Next year a few moths where white, the year after that ALL moths were white.
Are they hybrids too? No, it's a genetic mutation!

I love the Tessera morph and I have a hard time believing them to be hybrids, bred to have a garter snake pattern but all the other markers of a cornsnake. That would take at least a decade to produce and is a near impossible task.
But, no, genetic mutation is a lot less likely. Just like Ultra, Lavender, Cinder, Kastanie, Lava, Sunkissed which have all been discovered in the last decade. So they must all be hybrids as well.

Sorry, but I really hate these discussions where people always question everything. Asking for proof when it's impossible to get any. But they don't have proof for their side either.

I think we should all just stop this discussion. Nobody is going anywhere with this, we're not going to convince the handful of people who believe these animals are pure.

Originally Posted by abell82

Yes but are they really looking? Or are they so excited by the possibility of a new gene they are blind to the otherwise obvious or cryptic markers?

abell, could you please point out some of the apparently obvious and cryptic markers in tessera cornsnakes. Just a note, you may want to use nontesseras from tessera clutches in order to do this, seeing as their pattern and color has not been affected (but if they are infact hybrids, these animals would show the hybrid markers).

Originally Posted by fyrefocks

Since youre a stickler for proper spelling, you should know thats it leopard with an O and not an A.

And yes, it would be cheaper to go that route. Of course it might take a couple generations of breeding, inbreeding, line breeding, and selective breeding just to find a baby with the right pattern, Then youll need to do trials to prove that what you have is the same gene as tessera. But if you miss, all that work will have been for not and youll have a bunch of ugly snakes laying around. Its probably going to be easier for you to just sit there behind your screen whining about it.

BTW- ive had a smoke and a toke and im completely chill.

WOW! Fyrefocks, you really told me, didn't you? Thanks for the help! (BTW- when talking about yourself I should be capitalized, and so should Tessera and apostrophe's...well...)
But, umm any who... you weren't REALLY paying attention to the discussion, were you? Let's go over it again then, shall we?

IF, (notice I say IF) IF anyone, were to breed a Leopard (thanks again!) Rat snake, (or similar striped rat) to a corn and the striped gene were to act as they say and be dominant/ co-dominant to spotted. Then it would all just be a matter of out-crossing from there. Breeding the second gen. hybrid (50/50) to a pure corn, breeding that 3rd gen (75/25)... and each gen. becomes more pure corn then the last and still has the stripe gene! While becoming impossible to tell from pure corn. Ugly babies aside, you only need one gene carrier, to breed to a pure corn.
Understand now?

Originally Posted by abell82

WOW! Fyrefocks, you really told me, didn't you? Thanks for the help! (BTW- when talking about yourself I should be capitalized, and so should Tessera and apostrophe's...well...)
But, umm any who... you weren't REALLY paying attention to the discussion, were you? Let's go over it again then, shall we?

IF, (notice I say IF) IF anyone, were to breed a Leopard (thanks again!) Rat snake, (or similar striped rat) to a corn and the striped gene were to act as they say and be dominant/ co-dominant to spotted. Then it would all just be a matter of out-crossing from there. Breeding the second gen. hybrid (50/50) to a pure corn, breeding that 3rd gen (75/25)... and each gen. becomes more pure corn then the last and still has the stripe gene! While becoming impossible to tell from pure corn. Ugly babies aside, you only need one gene carrier, to breed to a pure corn.
Understand now?

Just another FYI, todate: there have been no "throw back" animals produced in any tessera clutch produced by KJ or don. Now look at champagne corns, every now and then you get some raised keels (a "throw back").