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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

View Poll Results: What name are you willing to call it?
None: I'm sticking with "bloodred" only. 35 68.63%
Episkiastic 5 9.80%
Diffused 7 13.73%
Other (please post with your answer) 4 7.84%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

Poll: are you going to call "bloodred" anything else?
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Old 04-14-2004, 08:36 PM   #61
Clint Boyer
[quote]True. A lot of it depends on the breeder. Some hold themselves to much higher standards than others. I think the first time I really saw that in action was when I saw Walter Smith's amazing candycanes at his booth in Daytona. [/QUOTE

So then when someone buys a pair of Walters awesome snakes, breeds them and gets not as nice snakes, if he calls them Candy Canes his standards are in question?

Darin,
No offense taken, I put my opinions out here to be challenged.

Quote:
But it seems to me that we are wanting to single out the bloodred morph as something unique in the corn world,
Seems to me that it is it's uniqueness that has us in this quandry.

My point in being nit picky about the red is to bring out the fact that we will indeed be put in those exact same circumstances that you and Serp have been pointing out about all of the other morphs.
How red does it have to be? Well with one name for the whole set of mutations involved (even if it's not so red or not as faded or has what amount of red creeping in the white ventral) It is still definable with one name.
 
Old 04-14-2004, 08:38 PM   #62
mike panic
Somtimes I think we get a little

too crazy with naming cornsnakes. Why not just keep it the way it is. We all know what it means and what it looks like. If anything, rather than thinking of bloodred "the color", think of it as the color is simply bleeding. To me, thats what it really means anyway. Some with more "BLEEDING" some with less "BLEEDING" If you really have to rename it more appropriately, just take off the red and call them blood corns. Not because of the degree of redness but rather because they all seem to bleed in some amount or another.

OLD NAME/NEW NAME

BLOODRED/BLOOD CORN

ANERY TYPE A BLOODRED/ANERYTHRISTIC BLOOD CORN "A"

PEWTER/ANERYTHRISTIC BLOOD CORN "B"

AMEL BLOODRED/AMEL BLOOD CORN

GHOST BLOODRED/GHOST BLOOD CORN

LAVENDER BLOODRED/LAVENDER BLOOD CORN

HYPO BLOODRED/HYPO BLOOD CORN

STRIPED BLOODRED/STRIPED BLOOD CORN

ANERYTHRISTIC STRIPED BLOODRED/ANERYTHRISTIC STRIPED BLOOD CORN

BLOODRED MOTLEY/BLOOD MOTLEY CORN OR MOTLEY BLOODCORN

AMEL MOTLEY BLOODRED/AMEL MOTLEY BLOOD CORN


you get the idea. Through normal "CORN SLANG" as I like to call it, we will probably drop the corn and just call them Amel Bloods, Anery Bloods, Ghost Bloods, Ect ect. I thin it flows nicely anyway.

I threw in a GHOST BLOOD for the heck of it! Thanks.
 
Old 04-14-2004, 08:51 PM   #63
carol
I agree with you Mike, I think it is a good idea going with "Blood" because the colors seem to bleed. I was tempted to post the same thought but I knew I just get the response "But we already established that the colors don't bleed, the background color comes in and overwhelms the blotch color".

Darin, if you like Episkiastic (I had to cut and paste that BTW) because it means "to ecilpse", why not just call them ecilpse corns? I think that would be met with much more acceptance. Again IMHO.

Perhaps we should call them debate corns.
 
Old 04-14-2004, 09:07 PM   #64
mike panic
I thought that as well Carol

but I figured the heck with it and went ahead and posted my thoughts anyway.

Perception and appearance is everything, and we can go round and round about whether the pattern bleeds or the color over takes this pattern or the pattern overtakes this color blah blah blah. The bottom line is they SEEM to bleed to some degree(at least to me) and we couldnt go wrong with calling them Blood Corns. If you think about it, they call a Pewter PEWTER because it APPEARS to resemble the color of actual Pewter, not because its made from Pewter. Perception & Appearance is everything. I said up above that they seemed to bleed at least to me. I say that because we are after all, talking about my opinions only. However, many people who breed corns who I have spoken to, agree with the fact that the colors SEEM to bleed. Thanks again.
 
Old 04-14-2004, 10:58 PM   #65
Rich Z
Quote:
I think this is not so hard to believe because every argument that has been put forth against "diffused" as a pattern trait is applicable to Motley.
Hmm, actually you left out what I believe may be the most important point of discussion:

* Blood Reds can basically look like normal corns in many respects as babies, however as full adults the pattern will be completely, or mostly so, obscured by the infusion of ground color that overwhelms the pattern.

This does not happen with the Motley. An adult Motley retains the same basic look as it did as a baby. Maybe in some cases not as contrasty, but if you took a photo of a baby, you could still identify it via the pattern when it is a full adult. This also holds true in all of the genetic color combinations that have been merged with the Motley gene that I have observed.

Now granted, this may just be an exercise in hair splitting, trying to determine if Blood Red is actually a color aberrancy or a pattern aberrancy, but the problem is that we have not fully defined ANYTHING in this discussion. Where does color end, and pattern begin? Since pattern is a function of specifically located colors, perhaps we need to step back a couple of steps and make some definitions first, then discuss what fits into those definitions we can agree on. Is the pattern difusing, or is the color infusing?

Even this will get messy, however. Is the "frosted" look "color" or "pattern"? Then explain why.....
 
Old 04-14-2004, 11:38 PM   #66
Sasheena
How about FUSION if people don't like the name BLOOD (which was a great simple suggestion btw). Seems to me everyone's talking about a fusion of the pattern with the background color until the mature snake is often not recognizable pattern-wise with the neonate. The demarkations FUSE until you have a Fusion

Thing is people will call it what they want.... what works the best for everyone will probably become the industry standard, regardless of the subtle genetic nuances involved.

I do think that it is important, with so many different hypo and anery type genes out there, that a person who is selling a snake they've bred can name what type of hypo it is, and the specific genes, especialy the more genes the animal has!
 
Old 04-14-2004, 11:40 PM   #67
gardenmum
I agreewith Mike

and had been thinking the same thing. I think that calling them by their name with blood at the end is good. Like Amelblood, Aneryblood, lavenderblood, etc. It is easy to say and flows well and when you hear it you know what it means. I don't think it would be any more difficult to explain to a new person what an Aneryblood was then to explain to them what a Diffused Anery was, and saying that is both a mouthful and I still feel, sounds like the anery is going to blow up. I have only been in corns for a year and a half and I had no problems learning and understanding what a bloodred was and what it's charectoristics were. All I did was study info on them, ask questions and listen to talk, just like I had to to learn what constituted an anery or charcoal. Calling them Diffuse, in my opinion, won't change the fact that you have to learn what it is and why it is what it is. And I also don't think Diffused is a very sellable name either. If I were to go to a table and see a stack of Diffused Amels and the one next to it had Amelbloods, I would be more inclined to go for the Amelbloods. In my opinion, naming a product is as improtant as the product itself and Diffused just doesn't sound "appetizing". And I think that is my biggest problem with this name. It just sounds clunky.
We all know what the bloodred is, maybe it is not the "best" name by some standards, but it is an established name that has been around for a while and is known.
So, unless something else comes along that really makes you stand up and say "Yea, that's IT", I still vote for keeping the bloodred a bloodred and shortening the others to Amelblood, etc.
 
Old 04-14-2004, 11:51 PM   #68
Serpwidgets
Just for fun...

According to Webster's:

-----

Diffuse (verb)

1
a : to pour out and permit or cause to spread freely
b : EXTEND, SCATTER
c : to spread thinly or wastefully

2 : to subject to diffusion; especially :
to break up and distribute (incident light) by reflection

-----

Obviously, "diffused" is more appropriate.

-----

I wrote a little program to "diffuse" an image.

It's basically like taking a Monopoly box, filling the bottom with a layer of colored marbles to make a pattern, and then slapping the bottom a few times to rearrange them a bit.

In the end, there are just as many marbles of each color as there were to start off, they are just scattered position-wise.

I know everyone gets a different picture from a word or words. Here's what I see:



I love how the pattern just dissolves. Reminds me of my pewter.

Note that I specifically made it diffuse the sides more than the dorsal saddles, to make it a more accurate portrayal.
 
Old 04-14-2004, 11:52 PM   #69
Rich Z
Hmm, why not turn the names around to be consistent with the historical name of BloodRed?

BloodAmel, BloodAnery, BloodCaramel, BloodLavender? I guess we could call the lighter examples as BloodOrange?

Or does that sound clunky too?
 
Old 04-14-2004, 11:54 PM   #70
Drizzt80
Quote:
Originally posted by carol
I don't think that is anyones REAL arguement here.

Actually I do believe it has been stated in those terms by a couple of people. (Don't want to name names, as I don't want to come off as finger pointing, which is NOT my intent, but I have read those posts.)

So are you OK with the "I like diffuse better and I understand what it means so I am going to start using it" arguement? The arguement for it is really no more trivial than the one against it.


I agree completely, but as a person who has worked in the retail pet industry for over 10 years, it's not about what I understand, it's about what I have to 'waste' time explaining to someone. The simpler the better, I would view 'diffuse' as simpler to explain. A Pewter would be a charcoal (or anery B) diffuse, a Bloodred would be a normal diffuse, etc.

it will still take some time to describe what a butter diffuse is.


It takes time to explain what just about every morph is! My whole point towards being in this discussion is that I just can't stand the discrepency in naming something an Anery A Bloodred! It's such a contradiction of language! (I also have followed these discussions for more insight into the genetics, Thanks especially to Serp and the others.)

Its is a lot of trouble to really get nowhere. Its not like we will stick a new name on and all the newbies will suddenly be blessed with more understanding.


Agreed! That will NEVER happen, especially after my experiences with people! (Try explaining to a lady she cannot give her goldfish Pepto cause it looks bloated.)

"Why does my diffuse corn look like the bloodred on page 969", or now we will have to "correct" people when they sell their "bloodreds" from a Pewter X Bloodred pairing. And don't forget the many many posts we will get asking "What is the difference between a diffuse and a bloodred".


I assume you meant 'doesn't look like the bloodred on page 969' I would answer that the same way people are told their Okeetee (or insert other morph here) doesn't look like the one on page 970. Variation!

I would assume a Pewter x Bloodred would give bloodreds het for charcoal since a pewter would be a charcoal bloodred . . . or have I not been following the genetics properly?

Diffuse/Episkiastic is a pattern/color? mutation causing the snakes blotch markings on the sides especially to fade or blend into the surrounding color. There is also a plain belly with variable amounts of pigment creeping in from the sides. A bloodred is actually a diffuse normal cornsnake with varying degrees of intensity in the red.

Kinda like that Okeetee you're looking at can have varying thicknesses to it's borders. Or that normal corn you were looking at, the one with a more silver background, that could be called a miami by some breeders, but is really just a normal cornsnake genetically.
BTW carol, I like your idea of eclipse corn.

How red does a bloodred have to be? In my opinion, red. How intense the red is would indicate the quality of the bloodred to me, and my personal tastes. That will end up being just as variable to everyone purchasing the snakes themselves. Same goes with pewters, how silver does it have to be to be a pewter?

Variability is what makes the different morphs fun. I like an amel leaning more towards a sunglow. Others like amels leaning more towards candy canes. And yet others prefer an amel leaning towards reverse okeetee. The FACT remains they are all still amels. Genetically the 'poor mans' bloodred is still the same as the 'standard' bloodred (again, whose standard?). That is if we have even an inkling of what the genetics are actually doing.

The 'standard' bloodred takes us full circle to the beginning of the discussions about this snake being called a bloodred when there was only a few snakes of red color showing this genetic trait. Joe you make a good point that the name bloodred has been around for 20 years or more. I wasn't into corns then, but what other color morphs were around at that time? If I recall, Snows haven't been around too much longer than that . . .maybe ten more? Point is, look what bloodred is getting mixed with TODAY, and I go back to the contradiction of naming a gray snake an Anery A Bloodred or a Yellow snake a Butter Bloodred.

D80
 

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