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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Ultra Mystery...
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Old 07-28-2004, 01:05 PM   #11
ecreipeoj
Ultra Photos

It would be nice to see some Ultra photos so we know what look we are talking about. I was a bit confused between the difference in Kat’s Ultra Motley “Deathy” and the photos that I received from Mike Falcon and some that I have seen Steve Roylance post.

I realize that Kat’s is a Motley, but the difference is too dramatic to be just the Motley influence. Perhaps hers is a what? Ultra Amel? One co-dominant Ultra and Amel gene? Perhaps it is the same thing that her dark eyed Amels are, but Motley too.

Here are some photos that Mike Falcon sent me. Since he discovered the Ultras, I would assume that these first two photos are of what he considers Ultra Hypos. He did mention that this particular Ultra was “High Yellow”. The last photo is of an “Amber”. I assume that it is a “Golddust”, since he was talking about working the Ultras into the Amber line.
 
Old 07-28-2004, 01:51 PM   #12
ecreipeoj
Sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulh
And lastly, the people on the boa forum at kingsnake dot com have developed a ghetto genetics dialect of their own. We absolutely DO NOT want to adopt their definitions of standard terms like "dominant", "codominant", and "heterozygous".
Based upon the breeding results so far, it seems as if Ultra may or may not be an allele with Amel. Most of the odd results have came from clutches that contained Amels, which means that the corn the Ultra was bred to was either Amel or Het amel.

Of course the Ultras used could also be het for Amel as well. Remember that the original breeding that Shivers did was an Ultra X Amel het Butter. This would produce hets for Ultra, Amel and Caramel in F1 and some of them were visual hypos. When these Hets were bred together, all of the hatchlings would be possible hets or homo for the other genes. To complicate things further, some of these F2’s were bred to Ambers, which introduced the Hypo gene into the mix as well.

Any and all Corns from Shivers Ultra line, are homo or possible hets for Ultra, amel, hypo, and caramel. Lets not forget that the Motley gene is in the mix as well. I have never been able to contact Andy Barr. He is a missing link between Falcon and Shivers and he could have bred who knows what into the line as well.

The odd results, especially the dark eyed amels, are leading us to believe that the Ultras are a co-dominant gene to something. The results can also be explained by the numerous combinations of the many mutant genes that are possibly in each mix. There are five known mutant genes that could be in each Ultra that is used for breeding.
 
Old 07-28-2004, 03:18 PM   #13
Kat


It certainly bears investigating, Joe... Deathy is indeed different from the images you've shown, so I suspect one of two things:

1. Het ultra, het amel, with amel being an allele to ultra
-OR-
2. Het ultra, homozygous amel, with the single copy of the ultra gene able to exert its presence due to the lack of normal melanin production.

I'd have to do some test-breedings to find out either way. Next year, Deathy's going to meet a certain snow stripe female, methinks...

We're not going to solve the puzzle this year, I suspect.

-Kat
 
Old 07-28-2004, 07:02 PM   #14
Serpwidgets
I haven't read through the thread yet, but the impression I got based on the data presented in the emails was that this Ultra gene could be an allele to amelanism. I wasn't able to find a breeding outcome which defied that assertion.

Assuming it's an allele to Amel, the following genotypes are possible at the Amel locus:
AA = Normal
Aa = Normal (het amel)
Au = Normal (het UltraHypo)
aa = Amelanistic
uu = UltraHypo
au = non-normal, probably either ultra-looking or amel-looking, or something between. Like Deathy, in this case.

One consequence is that breeding an Ultra to an amel could produce ultras and amels, or just amels, or just ultras. Another is that breeding an "Ultra" to a het for amel would produce things that would never be expected by anyone assuming Ultra is an independent new locus.

Something that I believe should be checked out is the possibility that any or some of the many now existing "Ultrahypos het for butter" might actually be genotype "au" at the amel locus.
 
Old 07-28-2004, 07:09 PM   #15
Serpwidgets
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Z
Now this one was completely unexpected. The Bloodred came from Don Soderberg and he has told me that he is more than 90 percent certain that there is NO hypomelanism in that line of Bloodreds I got from him.

Results of 14 eggs hatched:

5 - normals
4 - amelanistics
5 - hypomelanistics
This also appears to fit the model:

IF the GoldDust male is heterozygous (au) and the blood is het amel (Aa) then the results would be (statistically, of course) 25% each of:
Aa (Normal)
au ("Hypo" like the dad)
Au (Normal)
aa (Amel)

It also makes sense of why so many diverse animals that are so unlikely to be carrying Ultra can still produce "ultra" offspring.
 
Old 07-28-2004, 07:12 PM   #16
mike panic
I have not hatched any out yet myself but I can offer some photos of the snakes from

Mike Shiver. I was lucky enough to get a double clutch from the Ultra caramel female and a nice double clutch from the Ultra caramel Motley female as well. I recently traded some emails with Mike shiver concerning the history of these snakes. The male Ultra caramel Motleys and the Butter motley came from the same clutch and were a result of breeding Ultra to Ultra. The female Ultra caramel Motley was also a result of breeding an Ultra to an ultra. Here are some photos I recently took. Thanks
 
Old 07-28-2004, 07:14 PM   #17
mike panic
the butter motley sister

she is also from an Ultra to an Ultra breeding and is a sibling to the males.
 
Old 07-28-2004, 07:21 PM   #18
mike panic
here is an alleged Ultra caramel female and a sister who is het for Ultra

Mike tells me this about these snakes. He bred an Ultra Caramel to an unrelated caramel and hatched out Ultra ambers and very yellow caramels that are I guess het for the Ultra. I think there were only two Ultra caramels in the clutch and one of them is the Ultra caramel in the above comparison photo. All of the caramel hets were very yellow for caramels. I had bought a trio of the hets when they first hatched out(not really knowing what they were). I sold a pair to Ken siffert and the caramel female in the above comparison shot, I traded to Vin Russo. I just got her back as Vin was selling off some of his stuff. Now Mike tells me that the female was unrelated to the Ultra line so it shouldnt have produced any Ultras!!!? I'll leave that for you guys to hammer out. I figured the photos may help. Thanks
 
Old 07-28-2004, 07:25 PM   #19
mike panic
a female Ultra caramel Motley

Mike tells me she was also from an Ultra to an Ultra breeding. She just doubled up for me with a decent clutch so I hoping that when and if the eggs hatch it may tell us more. BTW, when I say Ultra to Ultra breedings, I mean a definate Ultra het for X,Y,Z bred to a definate Ultra het for X,Y,Z. I just cant remember what the combos were but what was relevant to me was that they were from an Ultra to Ultra. Thanks
 
Old 07-28-2004, 07:27 PM   #20
mike panic
this is just a solo photo of the Ultra caramel that was in the comparison shot

with her sister, the caramel het for Ultra. I hope all of this helps somehow. Thanks for looking. The photos are hard to capture the beauty of these motleys. They really are special looking. Have a good night.
 

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