Since they came from a male, who is ZZ, they would all be het for cinder on the Z chromosome. So those het females would only make visual cinders when they pass on the Z chromosome...which is when they are making male offspring.
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PILE-O LAVAS & LAVA CINDERS !!
- Thread starter Walter Smith
- Start date
Since they came from a male, who is ZZ, they would all be het for cinder on the Z chromosome. So those het females would only make visual cinders when they pass on the Z chromosome...which is when they are making male offspring.
DuxorW
Derailer of Threads
All the females would carry the cinder gene on their Z chromosome and thus the vast majority of their homo cinder offspring will be male. Since dad is ZZ and has no W, he will give all of his daughters one of his Z chromosomes. Since he is homo cinder, the daughters will get a cinder Z chromosome from dad and a wild type W chromosome from their mother.
If my hypothesis is correct, you're gonna need a female homo cinder, or a female het that is the daughter of a homo cinder female. This is because the homo cinder female would pass down her cinder W chromosome to ALL of her daughters, making them het for cinder with the cinder mutation on their W chromosome. Theoretically they would produce homo cinder daughters in any pairing with a cinder/het cinder male, unless there is a crossover which could produce a cinder male. Perhaps you will get lucky with one of your clutches and there will be a crossover in the het cinder female (with the mutation on her Z chromsome moving to the W chromosome in the egg cell) that gives you a homo cinder female!
Now, I have ANOTHER possible explanation but it involves some crazy stuff happening, so I'll keep it "simple" unless my hypothesis is proven wrong!
If my hypothesis is correct, you're gonna need a female homo cinder, or a female het that is the daughter of a homo cinder female. This is because the homo cinder female would pass down her cinder W chromosome to ALL of her daughters, making them het for cinder with the cinder mutation on their W chromosome. Theoretically they would produce homo cinder daughters in any pairing with a cinder/het cinder male, unless there is a crossover which could produce a cinder male. Perhaps you will get lucky with one of your clutches and there will be a crossover in the het cinder female (with the mutation on her Z chromsome moving to the W chromosome in the egg cell) that gives you a homo cinder female!
Now, I have ANOTHER possible explanation but it involves some crazy stuff happening, so I'll keep it "simple" unless my hypothesis is proven wrong!
Walter Smith
CRAZY BOUT' CORNS !!
Yeah, thinking about it after I posted, I realize those F1 het females will determine the outcome coming from the HOMO Cinder (ZZ) father and not from the initial breeding with the Buttermint male, like I was thinking before I asked.........but then it kinda does.
Looks like I'm confusing myself now......:headbang:
Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
Walter Smith
CRAZY BOUT' CORNS !!
cguarino30
New member
This has got to be the most interesting thing I have read in quite a while. Thanks all.
DuxorW
Derailer of Threads
I think punnet squares help make it clearer, if you can read my chicken scratch.
Here I used Z and W to represent the chromosomes and the superscripts c and + for the cinder and wild type alleles, respectively.
Above we have a female het for cinder on her Z chromosome crossed to a homozygous cinder male. You can easily see the results are half cinder male and half normal females het for cinder on the Z chromosome.
And above we have a homo cinder female crossed to a het cinder male. You can see that we get 4 possible outcomes at a 1:1:1:1 ration. Because the female is homozygous cinder, half the cinder offspring are male and half the cinder offspring are female. And we get cinder females that have the cinder mutation on their W chromosome.
You can use this punnet square for the other possibilities to get a more visual interpretation of the outcome. I hope nobody comes along and ruins my pretty explanation!
Here I used Z and W to represent the chromosomes and the superscripts c and + for the cinder and wild type alleles, respectively.
Above we have a female het for cinder on her Z chromosome crossed to a homozygous cinder male. You can easily see the results are half cinder male and half normal females het for cinder on the Z chromosome.
And above we have a homo cinder female crossed to a het cinder male. You can see that we get 4 possible outcomes at a 1:1:1:1 ration. Because the female is homozygous cinder, half the cinder offspring are male and half the cinder offspring are female. And we get cinder females that have the cinder mutation on their W chromosome.
You can use this punnet square for the other possibilities to get a more visual interpretation of the outcome. I hope nobody comes along and ruins my pretty explanation!
cguarino30
New member
This is also interesting information with regard to 50% hets. If I understand correctly, a het cinder dam (assuming she got the cinder gene from her sire) bred to a homozygous wild male should produce a clutch of snakes, half of whom are het for cinder. Barring a crossover event, this would make all of the hets male, would it not? Meaning that one can assume with 99% certainty that in a het female to homo wild male breeding, all of the males are het cinder, and all of the females are not, or visa versa if she got the cinder gene on her W chromosome.
DuxorW
Derailer of Threads
Yes indeed. Additionally, if you breed a female het cinder to a male het cinder and get cinder males, the females in the clutch would not really be 66% possible hets for cinder, as they wouldn't be getting a cinder allele from their mothers. Thus they would be 50% hets. This of course all assumes that I am right. I've seen on the forums where someone got male and female homo cinders from a het male x cinder female (other genes were also involved but they can be ignored), which supports my idea.
What we are missing is a female het cinder that is throwing female cinders. We need the offspring of a homozygous wild type male x cinder female. The daughters of this pairing should have the cinder allele on the W chromose they receive from their mother and a wild type allele on the Z chromosome from their father. When these daughters are mated to a cinder male, the cinder offspring should be female unless there is a crossover.
What we are missing is a female het cinder that is throwing female cinders. We need the offspring of a homozygous wild type male x cinder female. The daughters of this pairing should have the cinder allele on the W chromose they receive from their mother and a wild type allele on the Z chromosome from their father. When these daughters are mated to a cinder male, the cinder offspring should be female unless there is a crossover.
Walter, if this has been mentioned already, I apologize. Do you know the pairing that produced your het cinder female that is producing all these male cinders? Was it her sire or dam that was cinder? Or was she a phet that has since proven out?
If Duxor's theory is correct, it should have been her sire that was cinder.
If Duxor's theory is correct, it should have been her sire that was cinder.
Walter Smith
CRAZY BOUT' CORNS !!
No, I sure don't.
This is what I aquired that has started my Cinders, which all were produced by Carol.
1.1 Amel het Caramel Cinder ~ (from which my Buttermint came)
1.1 Amel het Motley Cinder ~ (0.1 holdback Motley het Cinder)
1.0 Lava Cinder
0.1 Lava het Cinder
and as mentioned in one of my posts, somewhere back in this thread, I don't recall EVER producing a FEMALE Cinder of any kind.
Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
DuxorW
Derailer of Threads
Guess you got unlucky and all those 3 females have the cinder allele on their Z chromosome. I'm guessing none of them had a female homo cinder as a dame. Carol has produced female cinder morphs correct? I'm interested in the parentage of those female cinders and the offspring of their daughters...
And this is, I assume, the same Carol who posted asking if any one had produced any females? So it stands to reason that all of her cinders are on the Z chromosome, and since your stock came from her, all of yours are too.
Unless and until one of those rare crossovers happens.
The good news, I guess, is that so far all of the data we have seems to follow Duxor's hypothesis. As long as that continues to hold up, it might be a pain to work with, but at least we'll know what we are working with. Much better than just thinking you are getting really bad odds over and over and over.
DuxorW
Derailer of Threads
I saw these pairings in her forum and have some predictions for each:
Amel het Peppermint Stripe X Peppermint Stripe
Should get equal sex ratio (chance aside) of homo cinder offspring since the female is homozygous and the male is het.
Lava Cinder X het Lava Cinder (multiple pairings)
I expect the sex ration of homo cinders to be skewed in all of these pairings. Maybe she will get a crossover or maybe one of the het lava cinders has the cinder allele on her W chromose, depending on her parentage.
Lavender Peppermint or is it Cinder Opal? X Peppermint Stripe
All offspring will be homo cinder and sex ratio should he roughly even.
Hypo Plasma X Lavender Cinder poss het Amel
All the female offspring should have the cinder mutation on their W chromosome and should be able to produce female home cinders when they breed.
Amel het Lavender Cinder X Lavender Cinder poss het Amel
Should he an even sex ratio of homo cinder. Het cinder daughters should have received their cinder allele from the W chromosome of the dame. When bred to a cinder male, the cinder offspring should be female.
Amel het Peppermint Stripe X Peppermint Stripe
Should get equal sex ratio (chance aside) of homo cinder offspring since the female is homozygous and the male is het.
Lava Cinder X het Lava Cinder (multiple pairings)
I expect the sex ration of homo cinders to be skewed in all of these pairings. Maybe she will get a crossover or maybe one of the het lava cinders has the cinder allele on her W chromose, depending on her parentage.
Lavender Peppermint or is it Cinder Opal? X Peppermint Stripe
All offspring will be homo cinder and sex ratio should he roughly even.
Hypo Plasma X Lavender Cinder poss het Amel
All the female offspring should have the cinder mutation on their W chromosome and should be able to produce female home cinders when they breed.
Amel het Lavender Cinder X Lavender Cinder poss het Amel
Should he an even sex ratio of homo cinder. Het cinder daughters should have received their cinder allele from the W chromosome of the dame. When bred to a cinder male, the cinder offspring should be female.