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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

"AKC" type registry for reptiles?
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:39 AM   #61
gardenmum
Quote:
I guess one of the long term benefits that I thought would be good would happen only after a corn registry is well established. That is getting hobbyists involved in the same way that other domestic animals groups are - with shows and public events. I think if EVENTUALLY kids coud have 4H projects with reptiles like they do now with rabbits, and pet owners could participate in shows along with professional breeders, it would add credibility and "normalcy" to our industry as we continue to distance ourselves from the "biker" or other "strange" images that used to follow us.
I have to agree that getting shows started and such would go a long way in preserving our hobby/industry as it will make it more in the public eye and more a "regulated" industry. And, of course, 4H projects in this would also be beneficial not only to the continuation of the hobby but also bring awareness that snakes are not slimmy, evil creatures to more people to stop the unwarrented "hate/fear" of them.

But I wonder if we need a "registry" to do this?? Would not just having written "rules and guidelines" be enough? I mean, if we want kids to be able to get involved, do they need to have a "pedigreed" corn or couldn't a corn that passes the "qualifications" for said morph be enough? These are just thoughts that are passing through my head and may not work, I don't know. I think if we limit the "showing" of a person's snakes to "just pedigreed" ones, we will be limiting the want and ability to show too much and will therefor have very limited participation. This is only my thoughts & opinions.

I think if we want to start corn shows, then we might want to be careful of how limiting we want involvement since that will predict how successful the venture is. shrug.

Added thought.......Also, if the "larger breeders" decide that it is not worth their time/effort to make up a lineage and register their stock, and since many, many people buy from them, this would highly add to limits of those who might love to get involved in showing but can't.
 
Old 02-21-2005, 02:22 PM   #62
Serpwidgets
There is always going to be the possibility of people putting in things that are not true, or misidentifying things. But using the registry to see what parents a particular snake came from, and what offspring it had, will tend to shed some useful light on the subject.

I will not accept "it cannot be done to 100% perfection and eliminate all possible questions or errors" as a reason to not do something. With all of its faults, it's better than the completely useles void of data that exists today.

You know the Ultra Mystery we had? Wouldn't have been a mystery. Not even a little bit.

The current questions about the "cubed" pattern have definite answers. But we are years and years away from such answers, because there is no data to interpret, because nobody has tracked exactly what these have come from or what they have produced. There should be no mystery, at least not on the level of what it is today.

How many more new genes will pop up and be unknown, not because the right crosses were never done, but because nobody ever knows which crosses were done by anyone else or what results they got?

As far as registering hybrids, of course they should be registered. People constantly complain about hybrids because they could end up as space garbage and people could unknowingly get one when that information is lost between generations. The point of a registry is not to say that a snake with a pedigree is superior to one without, but to be able to look at where it came from and base your judgement of its value on those criteria.

I think two of the biggest utilities of such a family tree would be the tracking of hybrids and the tracking of locality animals.

One final note: it doesn't matter who chooses not to participate. I understand the reasons of people with bigger collections to maintain. There are no hard feelings there. But that is not a reason for the rest of us to not collect and compile useful data and use it for what it is worth.
 
Old 02-21-2005, 02:36 PM   #63
Joejr14
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpwidgets
There is always going to be the possibility of people putting in things that are not true, or misidentifying things. But using the registry to see what parents a particular snake came from, and what offspring it had, will tend to shed some useful light on the subject.

I will not accept "it cannot be done to 100% perfection and eliminate all possible questions or errors" as a reason to not do something. With all of its faults, it's better than the completely useles void of data that exists today.

You know the Ultra Mystery we had? Wouldn't have been a mystery. Not even a little bit.

The current questions about the "cubed" pattern have definite answers. But we are years and years away from such answers, because there is no data to interpret, because nobody has tracked exactly what these have come from or what they have produced. There should be no mystery, at least not on the level of what it is today.

How many more new genes will pop up and be unknown, not because the right crosses were never done, but because nobody ever knows which crosses were done by anyone else or what results they got?

As far as registering hybrids, of course they should be registered. People constantly complain about hybrids because they could end up as space garbage and people could unknowingly get one when that information is lost between generations. The point of a registry is not to say that a snake with a pedigree is superior to one without, but to be able to look at where it came from and base your judgement of its value on those criteria.

I think two of the biggest utilities of such a family tree would be the tracking of hybrids and the tracking of locality animals.

One final note: it doesn't matter who chooses not to participate. I understand the reasons of people with bigger collections to maintain. There are no hard feelings there. But that is not a reason for the rest of us to not collect and compile useful data and use it for what it is worth.

Agree with everything 100%.

Hopefully Joe will get those breeding trials on the cubed pattern done next year, and hopefully I can get some done in the next few years myself.

I think you're right about the registry helping to answer some of the genetic questions from oddballs that everyone has pop up from time to time.
 
Old 02-21-2005, 04:33 PM   #64
Hurley
OK, I reworked the old rough cut of a registration form and figured I'd put it up here for anyone interested in looking through it.

This registration form was designed for someone registering a single snake (per entry form) with many blanks optional since info is not always available. The spaces are there, however for people to give as much info as they want to archive for future reference.

It's a rough second cut, but gives areas for locality people to record locality data. There is a section to note the animal as an intergrade/hybrid...this way, every progeny from this animal will also carry the notation and we can help to keep lines straight. The animal can be given a "Registered Name" like they do for the AKC and other registries...many people have their clutches registered with their progeny labled with thier trade name at the beginning. Something like "CCC Victoria" or "CCC 43623463f" or whatever. Or leave the option to the buyer or whatever. Whoever registers the animal, names it. Some dog breeders give the owners the application with their kennel name filled in the first few squares.

Anyway, explore it for what it is worth.

The thought would be that breeders would submit their breeding stock at the beginning (at least an ID of some sort) to get an ACR number for their buyers to register their purchases. With those ACR numbers, breeders can register clutches with as little info as the parents' ACR numbers and eggs in the clutch and date/year. The breeders would then receive a set of stickers with the clutch numbers on them, something like ACR Clutch # XXXX/01, ACR Clutch # XXXX/02, etc for the number of eggs/hatchlings.

If the breeder is a smaller breeder or really gets into geeking on genetics, the clutches may also be submitted with additional info such as phenotype/geneotype and sex...but it can be just as simple as submitting the cross and the number of eggs and getting back a sticker to slap on each deli cup. The buyer would then contact the ACR for a registration form (or the breeder can hand them out) and register their new purchase from there. They would then have access to any information within the database on that snake's family tree.

Well, those are some thoughts, anyway. Here is the form:

 
Old 02-21-2005, 05:02 PM   #65
Serpwidgets
Also, if someone was breeding hybrids and wanted to be sure the information stayed with the snakes, they could register each of the offspring themselves and sell the snakes with the printed pedigrees, instead of waiting for the buyer to do so.
 
Old 02-21-2005, 07:57 PM   #66
Sisuitl
This is a really interesting thread. I like the idea of corn shows, simply because it sounds like a ton of fun to have that many corn enthusiasts in one place at the same time. Also, I think that Kathy has a really great point about it lending normalcy to our hobby in the eyes of the public. In my homestate every year PETA brings up a bill trying to ban exotic pets like reptiles because they are "dangerous" and are "vectors for disease transmission". Loads of exotic pet owners then have to go in front of the legislature and defend our right to keep them. Anyway, I think that if there was shows with groups like 4H involved, and a formal way of recognizing the various cultivars that set them apart as domesticated creatures, it would go a long way towards showing the general public that they are perfectly all right.

Aside from the whole genetics background thing, I don't really see a need for registration to show. I do chinchilla showing with Empress Chinchilla Breeders Cooperative. All you need to show is have your individual animals tagged. They are judged solely on phenotype. The breeders are solely responsible for record keeping for their own herds. Some of the guys that show chinchillas have over 10,000 chinchillas. You just have to trust that they are being honest and not fudging pedigrees.

They are divided into groups based on color too. All chinchillas that are white based mutations are shown together. This includes silvers, mosiacs, pink white, TOV white, ebony white, violet white, sapphire white, tan white, etc etc etc. The same thing can be done with corns. Have an "amel" category, and "anery" category, a "caramel" category, "lavendar" category, "diffused/bloodred" category, etc. When you get animals with multiple sets of genes, say an amel lavendar, the show organizers would figure out which of the two categories has the least entries and put it in that one. Really common or specialized cultivars like snow or blizzard could be listed separately. A minimun number of entries for each sub-category could be decided on too. That way if there was only 6 amels entered, they would be shown against each other, or if there was 56 entrants with enough of each variety entered, they could be divided into groups like candycane, sunglow, fluorescent, reverse okeetee, etc.

If it is done like that then anybody could enter their corns regardless of whether or not there was any paperwork on them. For documenting, perhaps there could be a designated volunteer who goes around the show tables and photographs all the entrants or something.

I could see the value of individual animals going up, say if it won "best candycane" or something like that, but it shouldn't really affect the overall corn market. It would also give small time breeders a chance to build a reputation for producing really dynamite blood reds or high colored snows or whatever they are good at. Show would require a lot of volunteer work, but it would be a load of fun. I would sure be willing to help with something like that.
 
Old 02-21-2005, 08:05 PM   #67
Joejr14
I'm not at all fond of this corn shows idea.
 
Old 02-21-2005, 09:17 PM   #68
CornCrazy
Quote:
Originally Posted by blckkat
Their is a problem with that particular registry. The founder has been having a lot of customer service issues. She also has named herself the originator of a line that is not hers (the Citrus). If you do a search for Terri on the BOI, you will see a long (46 page) thread about her and that registry. Not many (especially in the Bearded Dragon world) look upon her too well right now. A lot think her registry is a joke. If anyone has already stated this information, sorry for repeating...I didn't go through all the pages of this thread yet...

I also wanted to add...With the incredibly high prices she's charging for this "registry"...Whose pocket do you think that's going into???
Can you give us the full information on which "Terri" you are referring to? I know that there are posts regarding me on the BOI and I definitely don't want anyone confusing me with the Terri you are talking about. Thanks!

OK...I just checked the BOI...is it Terri Sommella you are referring to? I just wanted it to be clear since my name was already mentioned in one of Don's posts (about my ghost).
 
Old 02-22-2005, 09:00 AM   #69
Traci1
Yeah, she meant the bearded dragon Terri not you. We all know you are a good girl!
 
Old 02-22-2005, 09:20 AM   #70
TripleMoonsExotic
O! I'm sorry. I hadn't considered that the Terri's on this forum would be confused with whom I'm speaking of. I'm really sorry! Yes, I was speaking of Terri Sommella of Fire & Ice Dragons.

I think a cornsnake registry would be a really neat idea. I would steer clear of anything involving Fire & Ice though. It's just another money making scam (can you BELIEVE the prices she wants to charge???).
 

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