peach hypo what do you think it should be called

Serpwidgets said:

Ok, so putting this "in order," the first generation of the project was a lavender/diffused het charcoal/hypo crossed to a hypo/caramel het amel.

(The male wasn't a hypo since normals were produced, could be a mis-ID, could be it was homo charcoal and it has a mild effect. Anyway, it's not important because the second generation is the same hypo-wise either way.)

Rich Hume took normals from this cross which would be normals het for caramel, lavender, hypo, diffused, and possibly het charcoal, and bred them to each other. This resulted in his "peach" example.

Vinny took hypos het for caramel, lavender, diffused, and possibly het charcoal, and bred them to each other. This resulted in his "peach" examples.

The other thing to consider, IMO, is "was that first male actually a lavender pewter?" (How would anyone know by looking at it.) This would make the F1s all definite carriers of all 5 genes. Even if it was only het, there's still a reasonable chance they all picked up the charcoal gene.

So, at this point the most obvious guesses would be (hypo) Caramel Lavender, and (hypo) Caramel Charcoal. I don't see anything that has eliminated Charcoal from the possibilities yet.

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no the male was a hypo lavender bloodrerd it is Rich Z main breeder male also The male could have been both hypo lavender bloodred and hypo petwer I asked him to prove it out but he didn't

Vinman said:

talked to rich humes wife on the phone he was not home . ball is in his court .rich z is a mod I'm sure if he wanted to he would have put his input . It would be nice. also I have no problem answering questions the only thing that I have is some of you think you can tell me what I can and can not do as far as the name.

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Richard Hume was viewing this thread earlier today. I was hoping that he would clear up some of the questions that have been asked. But no luck, guess he did not want to be associated with the negativity you give off. :shrugs:

Billybobob said:

Richard Hume was viewing this thread earlier today. I was hoping that he would clear up some of the questions that have been asked. But no luck, guess he did not want to be associated with the negativity you give off. :shrugs:

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I would take your own advice

Vinman said:

I asked him to prove it out but he didn't

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And we are asking you to show us the results of YOU proving yours out. How can you be certain that charcoal is not in the mix, when you stated the following???

Vinman said:

3 YEARS AGO I BRED A MALE HYPO LAVENDER BLOORRED HET FOR CHARCOAL GOST. TO A FEMALE AMBER HET FOR BUTTER

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Obviously, the babies were possible het charcoal. Have you proven that your breeders aren't carrying the charcoal gene? Have you bred any of them to a charcoal.

And I know this has been said many times, but I had to post that I agree...this is a forum. It is a place for discussion. If you don't want to discuss, then you are in the wrong place. This world is made up of many different types of people. Those people have many different ideas. A smart person builds on the ideas of other people. If you would quit being so rude and hateful, then you might actually be able to see that we are all trying to help...NOT tell you what to do. It takes LOTS of input to make a well-informed decision...that goes for pretty much every aspect of life.

You sound like a little child...I don't care what you say! I'm gonna do it my way...SO THERE!

CornCrazy said:

And we are asking you to show us the results of YOU proving yours out. How can you be certain that charcoal is not in the mix, when you stated the following???
Obviously, the babies were possible het charcoal. Have you proven that your breeders aren't carrying the charcoal gene? Have you bred any of them to a charcoal.

And I know this has been said many times, but I had to post that I agree...this is a forum. It is a place for discussion. If you don't want to discuss, then you are in the wrong place. This world is made up of many different types of people. Those people have many different ideas. A smart person builds on the ideas of other people. If you would quit being so rude and hateful, then you might actually be able to see that we are all trying to help...NOT tell you what to do. It takes LOTS of input to make a well-informed decision...that goes for pretty much every aspect of life.

You sound like a little child...I don't care what you say! I'm gonna do it my way...SO THERE!

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You just quoted me and I said that the hypo lavender can be a petwer at the same time what are you talking about That is part proving things out to prove the grandfather out first. that is why I asked rich to breed it to a charcoal.
the other thing Is I didnot wanted to be a thread but a poll I do have that choice so if I could have closed the thread from the start and kept the poll going I would have . Take about being child like take a look at you own post.

Vinman said:

You just quoted me and I said that the hypo lavender can be a petwer at the same time what are you talking about That is part proving things out to prove the grandfather out first. that is why I asked rich to breed it to a charcoal.
the other thing Is I didnot wanted to be a thread but a poll I do have that choice so if I could have closed the thread from the start and kept the poll going I would have . Takl about being child like take alookat you own post.

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Rich is not the one saying what this snake is. It is not HIS responsibility to prove out his snake(s) in order to help you. It is YOUR responsibility to prove out your own. Breed your snakes to charcoals and prove them out. If you are not willing to PROVE what you have, then you will not get any respect here. No one wants to pay that much for an animal when he/she could be getting something totally different from what is expected.

As for my cute little emoticon...I simply used it to emphasize my point (and to try to lighten the mood). That point being that you sound like a child who insists on doing things his way regardless of the consequences. Believe me, most often the child ends up learning he was wrong and that he should have listened to the opinions of others.

Oh...and one more thing...regardless of your wants...this is a forum. ALL items posted here are up for discussion. That, once again, is the purpose of a forum.

You didn't get what you wanted. So what? Be a man and deal with it! Quit throwing a temper tantrum.

Ooooo...let me be childish again! Can I? Can I? Can I?

I thought it might be fun to throw a tantrum, too!

To all this my concern all questions are welcome all questions on what morphs my be in or not in the peach hypo are welcomed. My only problem is people telling me what I can or cant name the morph it is rich humes and my choice and thats that if you think it is rude that is your oppion This thred was not started to discuss the morph there is already a thread for that I started this for the poll only. I wanted to get feed back on the name that is all . there is 4 choices to choose from cast a vote. thank you

Vinman said:

To all this my concern all questions are welcome all questions on what morphs my be in or not in the peach hypo are welcomed. My only problem is people telling me what I can or cant name the morph it is rich humes and my choice and thats that if you think it is rude that is your oppion This thred was not started to discuss the morph there is already a thread for that I started this for the poll only. I wanted to get feed back on the name that is all . there is 4 choices to choose from cast a vote. thank you

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Vinny...you have read MUCH more into this discussion than there really is. NO ONE...NOT ONE SINGLE TIME...has said you guys can't choose the name you want. We are simply discussing and offering suggestions. Get over yourself.

My two cents

OK, here's the deal on these snakes, from my perspective. Three years ago, I acquired a trio of normal corns from Vin, het for multiple traits, as already discussed on this thread. Last year, I bred them and produced a multitude of different morphs, all of which I brought down to Daytona (where Chuck took that picture). Out of those two breedings in 2005, I produced:

Normals
Amels
Butters
Caramels
1.0 Caramel Blood
Blizzards
Bloodreds
Hypo Bloods
Lavenders
Hypo Lavenders
Pewters
The "What Is It?" snake (subject of this thread)

Chuck and I discussed what it might be in Daytona last year, and agreed that it might (emphasis on might) be an amber lavender, but whatever he was, it would have to be proven by test breedings.

First let me say that these animals are obviously het for two different types of hypo, one probably the standard hypo A, the other unknown. How do we know that? If Vin bred a hypo lavender blood to an amber (forget what they were het for, it doesn't matter in this instance) the results should have been all hypos. It was not - my trio are all normals, so there are two (incompatible) hypo genes at work here.

For the record, besides for what I kept back (just the "what is it" and the caramel blood) several groups of the hatchlings ended up with Tim Smith, Deb Cash and Gideon Hodulick. All are doing well, I have been advised of their progress.

Zoom ahead to this year. I decided to test the combination lavender/caramel theory - my friend Gideon Hodulick has a normal female, het for both lavender and caramel. So we bred him to the male from the above trio, to see if we would get any combination lavender/caramel homozygous animals. We got normals, lavenders and caramels, nothing particularly unique. Doesn't necessarily disprove the amber lavender theory, just (in my opinion) casts a little more doubt on it.

As to what we got out of the trio this year, more of the same from year one plus what we believe to be a hypo charcoal blood and blizzard blood (Tim Smith again has these) plus two caramel bloods. No "what is it" snakes this year, and no lavender bloods (what I really wanted out of this year's group - 40 eggs).

The fact that there are two different hypo genes at work is actually problemmatic, because anything I produce that is a hypo (for example, I have a nice hypo blood this year) I don't know what type of hypo it is, so if I'm selling them I can't in fairness tell the buyer "breed this hypo blood to this hypo lavender" and produce all hypos het for .... because they may be two different hypo genes, and it is virtually impossible to discern the difference.

Now as to my opinion as to what the "what is it" snake is - I don't know. Is it an amber lavender? Is it a new (peach) type of hypo, because Vin produced two of them this year. Is it something unique caused by the smorgasbord of genes (including blood, which we know exerts sometimes exotic effects on het animals) in play here? In my opinion, as Chuck and I agreed last year, it has to be proven. My plan all along was to breed him back to his mom (in the hopes of creating more of whatever he is) plus I have a lavender female set aside for him next year, to see if I produce all lavenders. So I'm not ready to to declare it something new. At a minimum, I have to produce a female this male, breed them together, and see if that union creates all of the same animal.

I am attaching a few pics here - one of the snake as a hatchling, and two taken tonight. The problem is that he is deep in a shed, so visually this will be inconclusive to everyone. I will post a few more pics when he sheds. Finally, I also attach a pic of his brother, the caramel blood.

I will bring him to the White Plains show this Sunday, whether he has shed or not. I will also bring this year's hatchlings.

Rich Hume

Vinman said:

Jazz , let me start off with I have nothing agenst you. I said I could have locked up this thread but did not because i didnot want to mess up the poll. If I could done so I would have I only put this up for a poll. The fact your comment that the ball is not in my court is the point . Who are you to tell anybody what they should name any morph that they worked on. Take a step back and look at it from my point of veiw. How would you like it if it was said to you . I think that it was out of line. Sorry but no one has told anybody that you dont have the choice in what to name a morph they created. I still will defend what I said it was nice of me to start this poll. I started this poll just to get some feedback, thats all. I did not start this poll so someone can tell me what is should be called and it is not in my control. how dare anybody to have that gaul to do that. no one told or question bill love whet he coind the name ghost or eddie leach when he called his morph and a gene I made add a blodred or Joe e peirce went from transparent to lava and all the other morphs out there but for me it is diffrent Bull pucky

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I'm reposting to make a point I'm not throwing hissy fit just stating the fact. I'm not having a fit I'm quite calm It is most amusing how all of you can get so upset over nothing. there is nothing wrong in what I said the choice is up to rich and me what to call it and have no problems with any questions on what genes are in the peach find one therad where I get upset about what is in the makeup of the peach hypo. you will not find any not one. the only problem is that I have is that all of you seem to be on a rampage . the fact that I state that it is rich" and mine to call it what ever we want .

Excellent, I want to see these guys in person. I'd love to also talk to you about these snakes as well as the two different hypo genes in play.

Of course, I'll also be harassing these snakes with my camera, but that's nothing new.

Thank you, Rich, for your input. That was what we were all wanting...an explanation. We also appreciate the fact that you are going to do some test breedings in order to determine exactly what genes you are dealing with.

Thanks again for your perspective!

Thank you Rich H.. This is a lot easier to understand your thoughts on these "whachamacallit's".... We will be looking forward to the results of the prove out breedings.. I am wondering how much influence from the charcoal side of things has affected these guys...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

Just a quick question...

How sure are we that this 'hypo lav blood' was actually a hypo and not just a light lav blood? Dean has a lav blood that looks pretty damn hypo, but it's not. I think we've learned pretty recently that lavs can be visually sexed, so is this a possibility?

Was this hypo lav blood ever tested out? Would it make sense that it was a lavender blood het hypo?

Joejr14 said:

Excellent, I want to see these guys in person. I'd love to also talk to you about these snakes as well as the two different hypo genes in play.

Of course, I'll also be harassing these snakes with my camera, but that's nothing new.

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joe this is why I think that apic of the two hypo blodreds that I have are important they both look diffrent.

Rich humes: Rich Z has proved the male hypo lavender blood to be a hypo and accoarding it is compatable with hypo A morph that he has bred it to. Me and rich Z had a talk on how he had some breedings of what looked like hypo A to hypo A and produced normals but when the F1 were bred back together he got normal looking hypos. It just might be that when you breed hypo A to hypo A you may not get all hypos out of the clutch. Ther might some unknown factor that prevents this from producing all hypos

It's WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY to early to slap a name on. Only 3 possible specimens and we aren't even sure what morphs are involved?

Sure Vin, you can name it whatever you want. Don't expect a new flashy name to change sales, though.

I couldn't vote. There was no option for "It's too early and combo names are lame."

As far as the "hypo/lav/blood" snake that founded the project, I would guess at this point that it was not very likely at all for ultra or another hypo mimic to be mixed in.

I think it's much more likely that the male was simply misidentified. Does a lavender pewter look lighter than a pewter? I don't think anyone can answer that today.

But when bred to an amber het amel it produced non-hypos. That says the snake was not homozygous hypo A. There's really no accounting for that without resorting to sperm retention or immaculate conception. But Rich Hume's normal offspring were carrying dad's charcoal/diffusion/lavender genes, so even those quickly become unrealistic explanations.

If the original male was a hypoA het for ultra, then you still would not have gotten any non-hypos, they all would have been hypos, and some would have been ultramel hypos. But, no normals ever would have resulted in the F1. Since there are normals, and because all of that junk in the previous paragraph, he isn't a hypo.

TandJ said:

Personally, your looking really foolish.. Are you a professional or some boob? People have been asking you straight forward questions and you can't answer them very well.

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It's not CAN'T, it's WON'T . . . He's this threads 'Thread God' and therefore rules this dominion and can do whatever he wants! Get in step!

Vinman said:

read the first post on the thread and sick to the topic I dont give a rat ass about steve :-offtopic

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Interesting comment, very interesting . . .

Vinman said:

no the male was a hypo lavender bloodrerd it is Rich Z main breeder male also The male could have been both hypo lavender bloodred and hypo petwer I asked him to prove it out but he didn't

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This being the case, I would guess that Rich Z probably has some adult amber lavender's hanging around that were produced well before yours. Interesting, very interesting. Of course, at this point we don't even know IF it's an amber lavender!! Ha Ha! Interesting . . .

Vinman said:

It just might be that when you breed hypo A to hypo A you may not get all hypos out of the clutch. Ther might some unknown factor that prevents this from producing all hypos

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Yeah, right, your superfabulistical breeding techniques have thwarted even mother nature!! Interesting!

On to more important posts . . .

D80

Richard Hume said:

OK, here's the deal on these snakes, from my perspective. Three years ago, I acquired a trio of normal corns from Vin, het for multiple traits, as already discussed on this thread. . . .

The "What Is It?" snake (subject of this thread)

. . . it might (emphasis on might) be an amber lavender, but whatever he was, it would have to be proven by test breedings.

. . .
We got normals, lavenders and caramels, nothing particularly unique. Doesn't necessarily disprove the amber lavender theory, just (in my opinion) casts a little more doubt on it.

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Was any Hypo part of the test breeding here? I can't recall how Caramel and Lavender are 'supposed' to interact. Who/what masks each other with all the different Anery's . . . would this info be important here?

. . .

. . .

Richard Hume said:

Now as to my opinion as to what the "what is it" snake is - I don't know. Is it an amber lavender? Is it a new (peach) type of hypo, because Vin produced two of them this year. Is it something unique caused by the smorgasbord of genes (including blood, which we know exerts sometimes exotic effects on het animals) in play here? In my opinion, as Chuck and I agreed last year, it has to be proven. My plan all along was to breed him back to his mom (in the hopes of creating more of whatever he is) plus I have a lavender female set aside for him next year, to see if I produce all lavenders. So I'm not ready to to declare it something new. At a minimum, I have to produce a female this male, breed them together, and see if that union creates all of the same animal.
. . .
Rich Hume

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Thanks you for sharing and describing your efforts to proving out the genetics involved here. Luckily (?) it's a male, and will allow you to do this a bit speedier! Second, I was very pleased to read the line "I'm not ready to declare it something new." Can't speak for everybody here, but it really puts you on a level that I truly respect. You're interested in the quality of the genetics and education and not the quick buck! Thanks a ton for enlightening us about this new combo/morph. I too look forward to seeing the results of your breeding efforts. If YOU determine it deserves the name Peach down the road, it would seem to fit as YOU are able to explain exactly what's going on and have evidence to back it up. Of course, YOU may find something else entirely! That's the joy of it!

Thanks for sharing you involvement in this . . . truly!

D80

Chuck as I stated befor me and Rich Z had a talk about the hypo gene That there might be a unknown factor that might not let hypo A to hypo A make hypos.
Next year I'm breeding clutch mates to another breeding from the male . from hypo lavender bloodred. crossed to my red female stripe het for blood and anery A.and amel. We will see if they are het for hypo.

then ther is another snake taht I have from that male it is a hypo lavender bloodred crossed to a blood that is het for amel stripe. she was breed to the father of the peach hypo and only 2 eggs hatched one blood and one normal.

I also have 2 other females realted to this project. one is a petwer and a hypoblood. they are from the brother of the hypo lavender bloodred the charcoal ghost breed to his mom. I will be breeding them to the male bloodred het for hypo ,stripe,possible amel,aneryA.

Now here is another twist, the hypos that came out of the parents of the male hypo lavender bloodred and the breeding of his brother, the charcoal ghost to the mom of both males look diffrent that any other hypos that I ever produced from any proven type A hypo. They are more brighter and have more of a fluorescent transparent look to them.