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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

hybrids vs. nonhybrids
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Old 12-20-2008, 10:40 AM   #91
tyflier
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForkedTung View Post
NOPE! Just the main ingredients. ( don't even need the fat/het content)

Again, honestly! how terribly hard is saying or even labeling this?

"Jungle Corn, cornsnake x kingsnake hybrid"
It's not about difficult. It's about responsibility, and I am of the opinion that it is the buyer's responsibility.

"Jungle Corn" is the accepted trade name for a king X corn hybrid. Why should a breeder feel the need to put anything other than that as a label on an animal?

It's like the idiots that order coffe, and sued McDonalds because they tried to sip it, burned their lip, and dropped the cup. Now you have coffee cups that say "Caution: Contents Hot". That's ridiculous!! It's COFFEE!! It's supposed to be hot!!

Now, I admit readily that the labeling is extremely important. BUT "Jungle Corn" is the accepted trade name for the snake. I wouldn't label a snake, "Amber; Hypo/Caramel", because "Amber" is the accepted name. Anyone that doesn't KNOW what an "Amber" is should probably ask.

Now...I saw the kingsnake.com ad for those Sunburst hybrid-things, and the guy selling them specifically called them a "corn snake morph", and YES...that infuriates me. THAT is a bold faced lie. THAT is the seller's responsibility.

Like Susan said...where does it end? Where do you draw the line on what is "necessary" and what is not?
 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:22 AM   #92
Kokopelli
In a trade where you sell an animal rather than a product, and the seller should care enough for his snakes, I honestly feel he should provide the following:
1- to those who buy, a record of their feeding and shedding schedule in a separate paper.
2- support via email if needed
3- label what the snake is

As long as the snake is being sold along with corn snakes, and the term "jungle" exists as a morph in other snakes I think some clarification should be made, yes.

Tyflier no one is telling you what to do. I have my own ethics and I am explaining what I will be doing and have done in the past when I sold snakes. You can agree, you can disagree... that's fine by me. To me it seems you're very hasty to ditch the responsibility unto the buyer. I care about my snake, I don't want it to end up in the hands of someone who will feel cheated. Cause most odds are that the snake will be sold on or suffer less than optimal care because of it.

Big companies write the specifications of every product they sell on the box. The instruction manual is -inside- the box. There's a difference.
The fact that there are some idiots out there does not mean that I should cease all attempts to minimize said disagreements. You can feel however you want to about that but I really don't understand your vehement insistence on justifying yourself.
You do A, I do B... that's it.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:41 AM   #93
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
1- to those who buy, a record of their feeding and shedding schedule in a separate paper.
2- support via email if needed
3- label what the snake is
#2 and #3 are in agreement with my thoughts - even as to life-time support for the buyer via email. I also believe that a care guide SHOULD be provided to thiose needing it - even if it is only available in an electronic format. #1, however, is nothing more that cutsie bunk in my eyes. Feeding and shedding record from someone with 5,000 babies? What a joke to sat that should be required. If you can't trust the breeder when they say "It has been a good feeder," then don't buy it. A "record" is still only as valuable as the breeder's word.

....and, a feeding record is only necessary for health-related problems....and good breeders don't SELL ones with problems! I recommend pet keepers keep such records, but I have NEVER seen where it was beneficial for a pet owner to get such a thing from a seller with hatchlings.

KJ
 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:45 AM   #94
Kokopelli
Well we are in agreement I imagine that most of us will not be selling 5000 babies a year?
Beyond that though, a general statement that says that all babies have eaten at least twice willingly is good enough.
When you sell a very expansive snake though(like a high end morph) I think it is logical to hand such a record as well. You don't have to, but it serves a purpose and shows some measure of seriousness.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:51 AM   #95
KJUN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Well we are in agreement I imagine that most of us will not be selling 5000 babies a year?
Beyond that though, a general statement that says that all babies have eaten at least twice willingly is good enough.
When you sell a very expansive snake though(like a high end morph) I think it is logical to hand such a record as well. You don't have to, but it serves a purpose and shows some measure of seriousness.
Well, THAT I agree with completely.
KJ
 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:57 AM   #96
endrin
Well I lucked out this being my first time breeding this past season to land a deal with a tristate pet store chain to move my li'l guys to. My partner and I sexed all the babies and separated the cream/blood crosses and labeled them all. Turns out the store distributing warehouse didn't want any of the particulars anyway so it was just a big waste of time. In the case of selling at shows unless the buyer is a breeder and looking for a particular snake for a project most ppl buy snakes and such for LOOKS not because back in 1867 they crossed with a rat snake and in 1993 crossed with a milk snake and thats going to cause issues down the line. I label everything as do friends of mine who have been breeding for 20 years and more, and its rare that someone will walk away from a snake that catches their eye because of its genetics.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 11:58 AM   #97
ghosthousecorns
I think it's up to the seller to decide how far they want to go. Personally, I don't do hybrids, but if I did, I would want to make sure the buyer knew it was a hybrid. It's not because I particularly care about that one buyer's amount of knowledge and I do agree you should know what you are getting. But I would care if that person thought it was pure corn, bred it to another corn, and sold the babies as corns and unknowingly put hybrids into the "pure" corn gene pool. So even though it might be a hassle, I would probably make it a point to have "hybrid" or something somewhere on the label. It's not that hard to do, and you can never underestimate how little people know.
 
Old 12-20-2008, 12:01 PM   #98
Kokopelli
I have to disagree with you there mate. Maybe because here in Israel there's a different mentality but in the bible hybrids are technically prohibited for instance. Also, to many here it seems unnatural and wrong. A lot of it has to do with ignorance and prejudice but amongst breeders.... at least here we value pure bred snakes more. Not because they are worth more, but because of the conservation of the species. Some snake populations are getting smaller and smaller in the wild... should we not seek to preserve them in their original form?

It's a complicated thing, but I can say for a certainty that people here prefer pure bred snakes. Even if these look not as good as hybrids
 
Old 12-20-2008, 12:01 PM   #99
Kokopelli
My reply was aimed at Endrin
 
Old 12-20-2008, 12:47 PM   #100
tricksterpup
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
My reply was aimed at Endrin
But I get what he is saying though. Its going to be hard to track down the blood line of a snake that lineage that has been in the hobby say for the last 30 years.

How do I know or really any know the truth that my snake isn't a full blooded corn. You can't and none of us can claim any of our animals are true bloods.
Lets take my cross that I have posted pictures of here on this thread. I breed him with a corn in the next few years. Produce some nice looking babies. I then pass them on to some one who also breeds. I tell my person its a cross. They are fine with that.

A few years later they breed one those babies with their corn. It produces some nice babies. but this cross is more intergraded with corns but its still a cross. We go down the line about a few different owners and many generations down the line. Most people at that point will not know what genetics this snake has. but at one point for some reason some one produces some really odd babies and thinks they have a new morph. this is where the problem lies in the hobby. The only way we can keep track of this is through programs like the ACR. But that only works so well if people register their animals.

And right now with a Economic Crisis going on, how many people are going to put the hard cash into that and get animals registered?
 

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