hybrids vs. nonhybrids

tricksterpup said:

And right now with a Economic Crisis going on, how many people are going to put the hard cash into that and get animals registered?

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I agree... most of my adult breeding stock is registered, but at the moment I have better things to spend my (sparse amount of) money on than registering snakes. I think ACR concept is great, but I have been noticing fewer snakes being advertised as ACR registerable. And TBH I have NEVER had anybody ask me if my snakes are registered, and of all the babies I have sold with those stickers ONE person has registered the snakes they bought. I think if there were a free system like ACR it would be more popular. I have even had people snicker at shows when they saw a snake I had for sale with the ACR certificate on display. "Look, that CORN snake has a pedigree"
Sad to say, but I don't think ACR is the answer. And none of us can really know all our corns are 100% pure, because records can be lost or conveniently omitted for better sales. All we can really do is make sure if we sell a hybrid, the buyer knows that.

You can register hybrids and say they aren't, no one will bother checking.
There's always a chance that all snakes were at some point or another hybrids. Sure, but it's not very likely. And those who are possibly the result of such a breeding- they are the God knows what generation since said coupling, and if there was an outcrossing it's negligible now.
There's a legal term called "beyond a reasonable doubt". You can always say "never say never". But if both parents are corns, it is more likely that you're getting a corn than a hybrid. It is senseless to speculate the alternative.

that's IMHO

Personally, I don't see why a label stating what a creamsicle or a jungle corn is would be a problem for the vendor. Each corn I've bought at a show has had its hatchdate, feeding and shed record too. Of course those labels could be meaningless twaddle put on to make the vendor look better, but if I suspected that I'd have walked away from their table.
I have to say I'm surprised at some of the belligerent attitudes here towards providing info to potential customers.

I see the ad for sun burst corn has been edited to provide the sinaloan info, so looks like maybe something good has come out of this discussion :cheers:

ghosthousecorns said:

I see the ad for sun burst corn has been edited to provide the sinaloan info, so looks like maybe something good has come out of this discussion :cheers:

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I sent an e-mail to the breeder and told him his ad was misleading. That he did not have a corn morph but a hybrid morph.

diamondlil said:

Personally, I don't see why a label stating what a creamsicle or a jungle corn is would be a problem for the vendor. Each corn I've bought at a show has had its hatchdate, feeding and shed record too. Of course those labels could be meaningless twaddle put on to make the vendor look better, but if I suspected that I'd have walked away from their table.
I have to say I'm surprised at some of the belligerent attitudes here towards providing info to potential customers.

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I don't think "belligerent" is the right word. I, and I'm sure many of the breeders commenting in this thread, would gladly supply all the info requested for any snake we're trying to sell...if we are asked. I provide it with all sold snakes even if not asked (and if it's available - some surplus adults have limited feeding and shed records). The problem is having all that info labeled on the snake's little deli cup at a show (or on my website, in my case). It just isn't feasible, IMO.

A lot of it has to do with ignorance and prejudice but amongst breeders.... at least here we value pure bred snakes more. Not because they are worth more, but because of the conservation of the species.

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Nice thought with a lot of different species.. I don;t agree with that when it comes to corn snakes that have been breed in capativity.. There is no one in knowing whether or not that captive breed animal is pure corn considering the number of earlier hybrids that were made .. A great example is the how often Emoryi was used to increase the size the of corn hatchlings.. More emoryi in a lot of peoples corns than is realized.. I bet there is some Cali King hybrids out there and folks don;t even know..

If I know for certain I am selling a "hybrid" I have no qualms in making sure people know what they are getting and what I know about the history..

I would love to produce feeding/shed records for people, if we kept them anymore.. We have a lot to take care off, amongst the time I need for my real life job and well the time the better half needs to take care of the kids, web sites and other things... *shrugs* Not impossible for us to do, but very time consuming..

Lil mentioned..

Of course those labels could be meaningless twaddle put on to make the vendor look better, but if I suspected that I'd have walked away from their table.

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Yes, it could quite easily be a bunch of poppy cock.. I know I have the integrity to provide what I can to the buyer that I am aware of.. I have no problem what so ever..

Regards.. Tim of T and J

I have no problem labeling pictures or defining "trade anmes" on my site for people looking at my snakes. But if I have 4 clutches of cal kingXcorn...I'm not going to label every single deli cup with hatch dates, first shed, first and second feed, PLUS genetic history for every animal at a show. It simply isn't worth MY time to write everything down, and walk a new customer hand-in-hand through the process of buying a snake.

Look...there are a few things that EVERY customer should ask about EVERY snake before a purchase is made...what kind of snake, what morph, has it eaten, and does it eat F/T. Those questions are not my responsibility. I did MY part when I got them all shed and fed and ready to go. I label them with the accepted trade name, as far as I am concerned, I have done my best.

Anyone asking me "What's a Jungle Corn?" will get the right answer. Anyone seeing a picture of a Jungle Corn on my website will have the answer. Anyone that cares enough to KNOW what they are buying has to do nothing more than simply ask...and they will get all the information they want.

I'll stand there and talk for an hour with someone that is really interested in knowing the lineage and such of a snake they want to purchase. I'll walk them through setup, care, and basic husbadnry in person, email, or via the phone. I'll give them pictures of their new babies PARENTS if they want it.

But I won't take away any buyer responsibility. You want to own a snake? Be a GOOD snake owner, and ask the questions. Frankly, if you can't ask the questions that you need answers to...I don't have time for you. I don't know what you need answers to, so if you don't ask me...I can't help you.

And I'm not trying to be beligerant...I'm trying to be realistic. I have a couple hundred customers a week come through the shop and ask me TONS of questions about snakes. And I answer them all. For me to try and label every snake in my shop with ALL of the information that some people want to know is simply ludicrous, IMO.

As a breeder...I do what I feel is necessary, and I answer any questions a buyer might still have. As a seller...there really isn't much more that I can do other than that.

Perhaps the reason for the implied "beligerance" is because of some asserting that it IS the seller's responsibility to hold a buyer's hand, and spoon feed them information. I completely and 100% disagree wth that.

Imagine blaming the bereeder because Midnight didn't know that snake wasn't a corn...That's just NOT the breeder's fault.

tyflier said:

ILook...there are a few things that EVERY customer should ask about EVERY snake before a purchase is made...what kind of snake, what morph, has it eaten, and does it eat F/T. Those questions are not my responsibility.

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Have you informed your customers that they need to KNOW that those questions are ones THEY need to ask? If you haven't, then what are you standing on that allows you to assert that those are questions the buyer knows they should ask? Did you come out to womb knowing those were the questions you needed to ask? ...or did you learn over time? Do you not feel like there is a responsibility to OFFER help to relevant customers if it seems they don't even know what questions they should be asking?

Face it. Good or bad, many people go to buy snakes without knowing as much as they should. It happens. MANY walk in the door never even knowing they NEED to ask if it was feeding. Do you ask a person selling a 9 week old puppy if it eats or needs to be force feed? Of course not - those questions don't even enter their minds, and many beginning buyers think a pet is a pet. We've all pretty much heard the idea from a beginner that a snake will eat when it gets hungry - it won't let itself starve. Why do they think that way? It is because they are used to dogs and cats.

I agree with you that the buyers SHOULD ask those type of questions, but to say the breeder has no responsibility to OFFER up relevant information that the buyer seems to be lacking is incredulous to me. It is delinquent. It embarrasses all responsible breeders.

....or do you just think a breeder doesn't need to say "You know that is a hybrid, right?" because it just might (gasp!) reduce their chance at making a sale? Maybe my interpretation of your posts are in error, but the main feeling I get from them after reading them is that the SALE is more important than educating a potential customer who just might be buying a snake that isn't perfect for them. Buyer beware, eh?

(For the record, I'm sure I've sold snakes where the person should have been told something they didn't already know....and I missed telling them. Nobody's perfect, and you never do KNOW what a person is lacking in their education to date. However, I do still feel that we should try to inform people of the important things they may not know.....ESPECIALLY when they send out "I'm a newbie" wave! Obviously, there is a difference between someone buying a Jungle corn as their first snake and someone saying they are buying their 20th snake and already have 5 creamsicles at home. One person should be considered to be MUCH more likely to NOT know what they are getting than the other. Duh. Still, this could be the opening for a mistake on the part of someone like me. I'm not arguing perfection - I'm questioning what an honorable seller should or should not consider to be their responsibility on a case-by-case basis.)

I suppose the situation is different for a small-scale hobby breeder, I'm never likely to have more than 3 or 4 clutches a year! That gives me the luxury of recording every poop from the hatchlings if I was so inclined!
The main question from the OP was about sure-fire identification of hybrid corns though, which is why I linked to a former thread about hybrid markers. From there this thread has grasshoppered around in true forum style, which is why I love CSCom, it's never dull!

KJUN said:

Have you informed your customers that they need to KNOW that those questions are ones THEY need to ask? If you haven't, then what are you standing on that allows you to assert that those are questions the buyer knows they should ask? Did you come out to womb knowing those were the questions you needed to ask? ...or did you learn over time? Do you not feel like there is a responsibility to OFFER help to relevant customers if it seems they don't even know what questions they should be asking?

Face it. Good or bad, many people go to buy snakes without knowing as much as they should. It happens. MANY walk in the door never even knowing they NEED to ask if it was feeding. Do you ask a person selling a 9 week old puppy if it eats or needs to be force feed? Of course not - those questions don't even enter their minds, and many beginning buyers think a pet is a pet. We've all pretty much heard the idea from a beginner that a snake will eat when it gets hungry - it won't let itself starve. Why do they think that way? because they are used to dogs and cats.

I agree with you that the buyers SHOULD ask those type of questions, but to say the breeder has no responsibility to OFFER up relevant information that the buyer seems to be lacking is incredulous to me. It is delinquent. It embarrasses all responsible breeders.

....or do you just think a breeder doesn't need to say "You know that is a hybrid, right?" because it just might (gasp!) reduce their chance at making a sale? Maybe my interpretation of your posts are in error, but the main feeling I get from them after reading them is that the SALE is more important than educating a potential customer who just might be buying a snake that isn't perfect for them. Buyer beware, eh?

(For the record, I'm sure I've sold snakes where the person should have been told something they didn't already know....and I missed telling them. Nobodies perfect, and you never do KNOW what a person is lacking in their education to date. However, I do still feel that we should try to inform people of the important things they may not know.....ESPECIALLY when they send out "I'm a newbie" wave! Obviously, there is a difference between someone buying a Jungle corn as their first snake and someone saying they are buying their 20th snake and already have 5 creamsicles at home. One person should be considered to be MUCH more likely to NOT know what they are getting than the other. Duh. Still, this could be the opening for a mistake on the part of someone like me. I'm not arguing perfection - I'm questioning what an honorable seller should or should not consider their responsibilities on a case=-by-case basis.)

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Couldn't of said it better! (although I tried heh heh)

It's a hassle and an extra step before shows, but I do usually make up index cards with the feeding record for each snake. I know not all breeders have the time or inclination to do this, but I do think it might be useful to a buyer. If I just fed a set of snakes I might just jot down something like 101 - 304, 302R, 106sh, 107t, 201L. It doesnt take long. Later on if I am selling one I transpose all that gibberish onto a card with the translation... in my example, 302 refused, 106 shed, 107 was tease fed, 201 had a live pinky. Everything else ate f/t fine or there would have been a note.
In my case if I sold a hybrid I would at least jot down something like "Jungle corn hybrid, 25% king" on the accompanying index card, which is where I usually list the hets and ACR info anyway. It's a lot harder to fit "het anery, hypo, poss stripe" on a sticker than "hybrid" but I would want a buyer to know all that about the snake too.

KJUN said:

Have you informed your customers that they need to KNOW that those questions are ones THEY need to ask? If you haven't, then what are you standing on that allows you to assert that those are questions the buyer knows they should ask? Did you come out to womb knowing those were the questions you needed to ask? ...or did you learn over time? Do you not feel like there is a responsibility to OFFER help to relevant customers if it seems they don't even know what questions they should be asking?

Face it. Good or bad, many people go to buy snakes without knowing as much as they should. It happens. MANY walk in the door never even knowing they NEED to ask if it was feeding. Do you ask a person selling a 9 week old puppy if it eats or needs to be force feed? Of course not - those questions don't even enter their minds, and many beginning buyers think a pet is a pet. We've all pretty much heard the idea from a beginner that a snake will eat when it gets hungry - it won't let itself starve. Why do they think that way? because they are used to dogs and cats.

I agree with you that the buyers SHOULD ask those type of questions, but to say the breeder has no responsibility to OFFER up relevant information that the buyer seems to be lacking is incredulous to me. It is delinquent. It embarrasses all responsible breeders.

....or do you just think a breeder doesn't need to say "You know that is a hybrid, right?" because it just might (gasp!) reduce their chance at making a sale? Maybe my interpretation of your posts are in error, but the main feeling I get from them after reading them is that the SALE is more important than educating a potential customer who just might be buying a snake that isn't perfect for them. Buyer beware, eh?

(For the record, I'm sure I've sold snakes where the person should have been told something they didn't already know....and I missed telling them. Nobodies perfect, and you never do KNOW what a person is lacking in their education to date. However, I do still feel that we should try to inform people of the important things they may not know.....ESPECIALLY when they send out "I'm a newbie" wave! Obviously, there is a difference between someone buying a Jungle corn as their first snake and someone saying they are buying their 20th snake and already have 5 creamsicles at home. One person should be considered to be MUCH more likely to NOT know what they are getting than the other. Duh. Still, this could be the opening for a mistake on the part of someone like me. I'm not arguing perfection - I'm questioning what an honorable seller should or should not consider their responsibilities on a case=-by-case basis.)

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to KJUN again.

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You are the kind of breeder that I would buy from any day and trust what I was getting. I remember when we bought our first snake. Both of us had read Kathy's book, but it never dawned on us that the snake we were getting might not have ever fed. Of course, we had issues and the shop continued to deny that it hadn't fed. We didn't want another one, we just wanted help with the one we bought. They washed their hands of us. Fortunately found a vet that figured out her problem. When I finally asked for a feed record for the snake, the shop said it didn't exist. But when I filed a complaint with the BBB, the shop produced one... so who did they lie too??? And yes, consistently with each feeding there was one that failed to eat. The one record noted that it was the one with the white on its head. Not sure if that meant that only one had white on its head or if the employee didn't notice that the others had white on their head too.

I've learned a lot since then, but it would have been a shame if Lady G had paid for our ignorance. Fortunately for her, I was quite willing to spend the money on a vet to try to save her.

I have probably said this before in this very thread, but I think that it bares repeating. I was one of those "ignorant" first-time customers 2 and a half years ago when I bought my first snake. I had originally gone to the reptile show to look at leopard geckos and turtles. Although my son had been asking me for a snake for months, I still had not made up my mind. It wasn't until I actually held a beautiful little orange snake that I had made my decision. People like me assume that there is no better place to get information than at a reptile show where the breeders are right there. I asked a lot of questions that day, but the question of whether my snake was a hybrid or not didn't enter my mind to ask. The breeder knew that I was new with no prior expereince with snakes. Reptiles, yes, snakes, no. I left that day with an adorable snake,labelled corn snake and a few corn snake manuals. I have read those books and they describe creamsicles as having ratsnake origins and being part of the "ratsnake family". To me this is very different from the implications of the word hybrid. If my snake had been labelled hybrid, I would have known to at least ask about the name. I am not saying that it is totally the breeder's responsibility, but I feel that a little extra would go a long way in assuring that the customer doesn't feel cheated or double-crossed. Knowing that my snake was a hybrid at the time of purchase would not have changed my mind in the least, but it does make me wonder what else trhe breeder is potentially hiding just to make a sale. For me it's not the information as much as its the honesty and forthrightness of the breeder. Sorry fo the long-windedness.

KJun-
It's got nothing to do with trying to make a sale. Personally, I like hybrids, I think they are beautiful animals and I plan to breed them. There is nothing TO hide. Why would I try to hide something about the snake I put that much effort into creating? :shrugs:

With that said...I mark my deli cups with hatch date, first blue, first shed, first feed, whether first feed was f/t, f/k, or live, second feed and second shed. IMO, that's the important information that a customer should absolutely have. Even a newbie with zero experience can put that to use
As far as a newbie asking questions...part of doing research before buying a snake is fnding out what questions need to be asked. There are roughly 7 million web pages dedicated to snakes and first-time buyers, including some on my own website. A newbie that has read at least one or two of those pages *should have an idea of what to ask from a breeder. If they don't, they only need to spend 10 minutes in any of about 4,000 reptile specific forums, and every mermber will offer an opinion on what to ask and what to look for.

In my humble opinion, it all boils down to responsibility. The more information a breeder provides for a customer, the less "work" the customer needs to do on their own. I do not want to remove the reposnsibility from the buyer. Asking questions about an animal before buying it is the most basic buyer responsibility. It's also part of researching that animal. THAT is the buyer's responsibility. Do a little research. It only takes a couple days of internet searching to find out what questions should be asked before buying a snake. It doesn't take 20 years of experience, it takes 10 minutes of google searching, and 2 days on a forum. Instant knowledge has never been so easy. EVERY customer should be able to buy a snake with a basic understanding of what to look for and what to ask from the breeder before making a purchase. If they don't, they haven't even done the most basic research, and THAT, IMO, is irresponsible.

And for the record...asking me questions IS part of the research.

Nobody would blame an AKC breeder if a customer couldn't tell the difference between a golden retriewver and a chocolate lab. That would be the buyer's fault. Nobody would blame an AKC breeder if a customer wanted a poodle and bought a mastiff because they didn't know what they were looking at. And nobody would expect the breeder to volunteer "that's not a poodle". It would be the cutomers' responsibility to say "Is that a poodle?"

I want a potential customer to care enough about the animal that they WANT to learn about it. That usually means they will take good care of it. I offer basic husbandry education with every animal purchase. I usually provide a caresheet, and tell the customer to go home and read it and come back later and we'll talk. I'm sure I've blown sales doing that, but it makes me comfortable. Those that come back *usually* have enough interest to take GOOD care of their new pets.

We ALL know that people simply do not care as much about stuff that is too easy to acquire. The moreeffort they need to put into something, the more important that thing becomes to them. IMO, researching sanakes should be the same. Makle a little effort. I'm willing to help, but I'm not going to do it for you. Put in some effort...

I think to be honest when someone is planning on keeping a new pet the obvious questions should come to mind. What to feed it, how often, housing, temps, common diseases, and disorders- things like that. However, to imply that newer keepers should and would be hip to all the hybrid morphs is a little overboard. I know from keeping rhacs hybrids are a VERY hot topic for most and there are those who both support and take issue with a hybrid anything. I personally have no issue with anyone keeping or breeding hybrids as long as their bloodlines are disclosed at the point of sale. I am not at all keen to all the corn morphs yet, but I understand the importance of representing animals for sale accurately to do your part in being a responsible breeder. It isn't hard for any idiot to put two things together for the purpose of reproduction and unfortunately it happens all the time whether or not they fully educated themelves. To a degree it is abolutely the owners responsibility to gain this insight before breeding and yes even buying, but again of course this doesn't always happen. For the sake of keeping bloodlines pure it can't hurt to label them as a hybrid if you go to the trouble of adding hatch dates, feeding schedules, and food preference anyway.

Why is there such a stigma associated with hybrids?

Why are Emoryi X Corns O.K. to some, but not King or Pit crosses?

Knowing the history of Ultras, WHERE have all the Hybrid/ Grey Rat / Frosted Ultras gone?
For instance:
How many Golddusts bloodlines actually have Grey rat blood in them?
How many people that "don't deal in Hybrids" actually ARE dealing in hybrids, but don't "KNOW" that they are?

If snakes were dogs wouldn't hybrids be MORE sought after then "pure" blooded animals? (Lhasapoo vs Lhasa apso, and the like.)

If an Amel Junglecorn (or any Hybrid for that matter) usually sells for more money then a "pure" Amel corn why would a seller conceal it's heritage, to make a sale for less money, isn't that what negotiation is all about?

I don't understand?

Mixing dog breeds is not the same as hybridizing snakes.
All dogs are "Canis Familiaris", whereas snakes are different species.

Also, I can't see where a designer "lhasapoo" mutt is more sought after than a purebred lhasa.

starsevol said:

Mixing dog breeds is not the same as hybridizing snakes.
All dogs are "Canis Familiaris", whereas snakes are different species.

Also, I can't see where a designer "lhasapoo" mutt is more sought after than a purebred lasa.

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All DOGS are now "Canis Familiaris" However at one time they were wolves. Different species of wolves.

Ever checked the prices of these designer mutts? Crazy.

And if the dog analogy bothers you so much skip over it and answer the snake questions.:noevil:

Designer mutts are expensive because they are fashionable and backyard breeders are greedy.
They don't conform to a breed standard.
They can't be shown.
They are no better than the millions of nice mutts that die in shelters everyday.

Personally, I don't like hybrids. The rat x corns look too much like corns, so without breeder honesty you don't really know what you have. And the king x corns, (and other combinations) might be beautiful to some people, but they just look freaky and wrong to me.

I also don't like the idea that in some hybrid combos, the snakes need to be tricked in order to breed.