Purist Breeders

Whoa!!!! :blowhead:

Carpe Serpentis said:

Is it known whether that yellow portion of your Miami is heritable? I've seen a few other snakes with such a look, but I can't recall if it was mentioned if it were heritable. I think if so, then it would make for some amazing morph combinations. Please forgive me if this is too easy of a question or is posted somewhere else.

As for eggs being harder to ship, what are the stumbling blocks to this that you see. Again, forgive me for my ignorance as my experience is mostly with shipping plants, chicken eggs, etc.

Thank you Doug, I am beginning to see your point of view and it is a saddening state of affairs indeed when pure specimens are no longer able to be found. The same thing is found in the hobby with Brugmansia as there are very few Brugmansia aurea that I consider pure. Take the Brugmansia Dave P. posted in his blue linked "brugs" He posted a what appears to me as a multihybrid consisting of 3 different species all bottled up into one hybrid. It is very important to me personally, to try and keep species pure and to do this hybrids or suspected hybrids must be labeled appropriately and yes... I see your point... perhaps it is better not to hybridize at all if one can not keep them separate.

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Well, to be honest, She hasn't bred yet and is just getting up to size. I imagine a significant part of that would be inheritable, but would likely be somewhat variable im the offspring too. It is fairly typical for many "Miami" phenotypes (as well as other corns) to display some yellow coloration in the first 1/4th to 1/3rd of their bodies. Most Captive breeders of Miami's don't really want to see any yellow, and line-breed for the most solid gray background they can possibly get.

Eggs are just as illegal as animals are if the country does not allow exportation, so that is the big problem there. It's not that they are so rare in their native ranges, but in captivity they sure are because of the country's laws. I don't even know what the import/export status is as of right now with that country, but it's not likely that they allow anything to be exported at all.

Anyway,...yeah, some of the triangulum are a big deal that are totally unobtainable. My friend saw some Dixon's milksnakes (2 sexual pairs) at a show in San Diego back in 1992 that were being offered for sale.

Here is his a post he made regarding them after he saw me mentioning Dixon's in my post to another guy. A newbie was asking about their availability...LOL!! I popped in and told him that he would have better luck tripping over a pirate's treasure chest as he walked down a crowded beach. :laugh: So after my bud saw that, he re-told his sad story..LOL! I guarantee they would go for every bit of $1,500 each, today not $150 like he could have picked them up for then at that show. :nope:



I have a sad little story cause you mentioned it in your post.

ok, it was (92) and I was set up and doing my first show as a vendor in San Diego at the I.R.B.A. show. There was another vendor set up (Vince Schiedt) and he had 2.2 textbook DIXONI!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on his table. He had just came from England where he had did a big trade yada yada yada....Well, all dang weekend I kept going back to his table and picking the cups up and he kept saying Shannon you need those man you are the milk man blah blah....And I kept saying yeah but I really want some better looking ones with not so many crossovers etc....Well, that was 19 freaking years ago and I have never seen another one since then. I have cried like a little baby a couple times remembering that horrible afternoon.
The Ironic part is he sold them to a guy that was there from England!.LOL..... they went back over the pond and I tried for years to track them down with no luck.
p.s. He only wanted $150.00 each for them...(wiping face now)

Yellow is the most intense at the head/neck in all morphs that have yellow.

Carpe Serpentis said:

The same thing is found in the hobby with Brugmansia as there are very few Brugmansia aurea that I consider pure. Take the Brugmansia Dave P. posted in his blue linked "brugs" He posted a what appears to me as a multihybrid consisting of 3 different species all bottled up into one hybrid. It is very important to me personally, to try and keep species pure and to do this hybrids or suspected hybrids must be labeled appropriately and yes... I see your point... perhaps it is better not to hybridize at all if one can not keep them separate.

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Well, gosh, good thing there aren't any pollinators of that sterile Brugmansia here where they are not native to. Sayyyyy, you're not one of them horticultural "Purists" are you? :sidestep:

dave partington said:

Well, gosh, good thing there aren't any pollinators of that sterile Brugmansia here where they are not native to. Sayyyyy, you're not one of them horticultural "Purists" are you? :sidestep:

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Sarcasm noted.

Let me try to explain it in another way you may be able to understand.

I like pure species even though I don't believe in absolute purity.

I also like hybrids.

I love hybridizing.

I don't think that breeding hybrids or breeding pure specimens are mutually exclusive and I don't think blaming hybridizers is helping anyone maintain pure species.

Hybridizers will always seek to hybridize and many times... hybridizers may also seek to maintain pure species.

Brugmansia are not sterile, the majority of them however are not self-fertile.

The Brugmansia you posted for instance is not self-fertile. :duck:

If hybrids are to be kept at the expense of pure specimens however, I would much rather have the pure specimens as that is where your going to get your diversity for your hybrid projects. With some more hybrids they get the less fertile the more one mixes. You may need pure species to breed back to maintain fertility to help create a line of hybrids. This is why a hybridizer often needs pure species.

Carpe Serpentis said:

If hybrids are to be kept at the expense of pure specimens however, I would much rather have the pure specimens as that is where your going to get your diversity for your hybrid projects. With some more hybrids they get the less fertile the more one mixes. You may need pure species to breed back to maintain fertility to help create a line of hybrids. This is why a hybridizer often needs pure species.

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You get a cookie. The world isn't full of seedless watermelons, for instance.

Diploids crossed to tetraploids to get triploids fertilized by diploids to create seedless watermelon or other chemical means to directly or indirectly influence seedless fruit does not really appeal to me personally. If it floats your boat then go for it though. There is much to be said for what has been accomplished with tetraploid flowers, protoplast fusion, etc. Simple embryo rescue has already accomplished the task of creating your Datmansia for instance. I'm hear to learn more about corns. The fact that some also hybridize corns here is a plus for me only if they are willing to share pictures, failures, successes, etc. But definitely not needed. I also like learning from Doug. Sure, he and I don't see eye to eye on many things or if we do were not always getting it, but I enjoy these things. The jabs back and forth to see who can give out the best cookies or who is the smartest and who can discredit who doesn't really do much for me. I don't need my ego stroked nor do I wish to bash anyone else's ego. Lets just leave it at I would really like to learn. I am very opinionated, but I am open to facts so I'm not completely closed minded. I can see many people on these forums are a wealth of knowledge and I respect that knowledge even when I don't share all the same opinions. I can even separate my disdain for how this knowledge is sometimes presented and keep respect for that knowledge the other person has. If I'm missing something your trying to tell me with your cookie... I tend to be more of a straight shooter. Let me know how you really feel.

It wasn't meant as a jab. There are a few watermelon crosses which result in sterile (seedless) fruit producers. As with what seems to happen with some F1 hybrid snakes. If there are certain crosses of snake which reliably produce sterile offspring it would be interesting. The cookie was for giving me something new to think about, something to go researching. Sure you're here to learn about corns, I didn't mean to learn about other stuff from you, it just happened. Sorry about having some mutual appreciations.

Carpe Serpentis said:

Diploids crossed to tetraploids to get triploids fertilized by diploids to create seedless watermelon or other chemical means to directly or indirectly influence seedless fruit does not really appeal to me personally. If it floats your boat then go for it though. There is much to be said for what has been accomplished with tetraploid flowers, protoplast fusion, etc. Simple embryo rescue has already accomplished the task of creating your Datmansia for instance. I'm hear to learn more about corns. The fact that some also hybridize corns here is a plus for me only if they are willing to share pictures, failures, successes, etc. But definitely not needed. I also like learning from Doug. Sure, he and I don't see eye to eye on many things or if we do were not always getting it, but I enjoy these things. The jabs back and forth to see who can give out the best cookies or who is the smartest and who can discredit who doesn't really do much for me. I don't need my ego stroked nor do I wish to bash anyone else's ego. Lets just leave it at I would really like to learn. I am very opinionated, but I am open to facts so I'm not completely closed minded. I can see many people on these forums are a wealth of knowledge and I respect that knowledge even when I don't share all the same opinions. I can even separate my disdain for how this knowledge is sometimes presented and keep respect for that knowledge the other person has. If I'm missing something your trying to tell me with your cookie... I tend to be more of a straight shooter. Let me know how you really feel.

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dave partington said:

It wasn't meant as a jab. There are a few watermelon crosses which result in sterile (seedless) fruit producers. As with what seems to happen with some F1 hybrid snakes. If there are certain crosses of snake which reliably produce sterile offspring it would be interesting. The cookie was for giving me something new to think about, something to go researching. Sure you're here to learn about corns, I didn't mean to learn about other stuff from you, it just happened. Sorry about having some mutual appreciations.

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Just so you know, Dave is not one to make jabs.
If he has an issue, he tends to pm all quiet and private-like.
I jab.

It's usually the folks that get under my skin a bit that give me a new perspective to consider for awhile, and then in the long run I usually gain something out of it.

you shouldn't be able to breed a triploid with anything.

dave partington said:

It wasn't meant as a jab. There are a few watermelon crosses which result in sterile (seedless) fruit producers. As with what seems to happen with some F1 hybrid snakes. If there are certain crosses of snake which reliably produce sterile offspring it would be interesting. The cookie was for giving me something new to think about, something to go researching. Sure you're here to learn about corns, I didn't mean to learn about other stuff from you, it just happened. Sorry about having some mutual appreciations.

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dave partington said:

It's usually the folks that get under my skin a bit that give me a new perspective to consider for awhile, and then in the long run I usually gain something out of it.

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I apologize for the misunderstanding. I thank you for sharing with me and the others here Dave. Doug as well, he has been very informative... so many here are a wealth of information. Please excuse me for being a bit on the defensive side after so many pokes or jabs should I say, I may have seen what was not meant and that my friend is something I don't like to do, but when I do it and I feel the other person is being genuine I feel an apology is in order.
I'd be interested in learning more about known hybrids that produce sterile young. I'd be interested to know if this is a one way sterility... meaning all males are sterile, or if both sexes are affected.

As for Codymi, you can breed anything to anything within reason. Saying you will get seeds or fertile seeds is another matter altogether. Sometimes fruits form with difficult crosses for instance and the seeds have been aborted. Such as when a tetraploid is bred to a diploid. You can also have what is called partial conversion with some tetraploids etc.

Scratch everything after that third sentence (in the above post) as I was done there and my mind wandered. Tetraploid bred to a diploid gives you a triploid which when bred to a diploid can give you seedless watermelon for instance.

Meaning, the pollen stimulates fruit production in the tetraploid. NOT That seeds will be formed.

http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wmelon/seedless.html

i think you might be confusing your terminology

codymi said:

http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wmelon/seedless.html

i think you might be confusing your terminology

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Not at all. A triploid is produced from breeding a tetraploid to a diploid. The tetraploid is then bred to a diploid to produce seedless fruit.

"Use of triploid hybrids has provided a method for production of seedless fruit. Kihara began working on seedless watermelons in 1939, and had commercial triploid hybrids available 12 years later. The development of triploid cultivars adds several problems to the process of watermelon breeding: extra time for the development of tetraploids; additional selection against sterility and fruit abnormalities; choice of parents for reduced seed coat production; the reduction in seed yield per acre obtained by seed companies; reduced seed vigor for the grower; and the necessity for diploid pollenizer taking one-third of the grower's production field."
From your article above. This is exactly what I have been saying.

Colchicine is often used to induce tetraploids as are a number of other chemicals such as surflan. Hemerocallis breeders for instance, sometimes induce tetraploids on a single scape or a flower and sometimes tetraploidy is induced by treating the seeds themselves or the plant itself. Protoplast fusion can also be used to produce a hybrid tetraploid with two different plants if one wishes. Cut style or style grafting can also be used to overcome barriers to hybridization with some plants. Of course, there are many other tricks to get plants to hybridize that might not otherwise. If one desires a standard diploid hybrid one can also look into anther or pollen micropropagation/tissue culture to produce diploid plants from tetraploids. Or, perhaps you want a haploid from doing the same with a diploid plant. There are many other ways to think about hybridizing and where you want to go with it and how you want to achieve it as well when dealing with plants. But that should scratch the surface.

One thing every hybridizer of plants should know is how long their pollen is viable for and how to properly dry and freeze pollen to extend its shelf life to enable pollinations that might not otherwise be possible due to flowering times being off. Of course, other tricks such as making a good mixed donor pollen with one pollen perhaps inactivated or grafting styles... are also good things to know or experiment with. Pollinating twice at different times can sometimes give you a larger seed count... early pollination before the flower has opened via slicing into a partially developed flower can be beneficial when a flower is capable self-pollinating. Knowing how early this can be done with a particular flower can get you a few days jump start on seed development. Of course, protecting your flower from sources of external pollination is also often advised by the simple addition of a netting over the flower.... there are many tricks that many have used to create hybrids with flowers and I will confess that I have looked into a great many of them and experimented with some of them myself, but by no means all of them. I'm largely self taught with many of these things and by no means an expert on them. I have had a few good teachers along the way. Mr Bridges my horticulture teacher and Mr. Ottis Houston a hemerocallis hybridizer taught me hands on a few things as well. Mr Ottis allowed me to plant thousands of my hybrids on his land and I am thankful for his encouragement and interest that he showed in me and my ideas on hybridizing. He was a wealth of information.... I've of course since learned more from many other hybridizers as we all learn from other hybridizers, but no two people have mentored me as much or as long as those two have mentored me. I must confess there is lots I do not remember as well when it comes to hybridizing as Hemerocallis was not something I was interested in breeding at the time. Not that I didn't dabble a bit with them, but nothing too serious.

Eggadds. I did post that wrong in the above post and no edit!!! Lol, a triploid is produced from breeding a diploid to a tetraploid. The fruit production is set by the diploid pollen to a tetraploid.
The easy way to think about it is this
Tetraploid 4x= often induced by chemical conversion such as surflan or colchicine or even protoplast fusion
Triploid 3 x = 4x(f) x 2x(m)
Diploid 2x normal
Haploid 1x anther culture
Seedless fruit are produced by 3x(f) x 2x(m).

I know this stuff, but I must admit I am guilty of typing things wrong and when I see it typed wrong I correct myself by reposting.

like i said, you were confusing the terminology. i've been hybridizing for twenty years

Agreed, Codymi. I did type it out so as to be more than confusing. Now, that we have covered a bit about plant hybrids...


Let me again state, I am very happy to learn more about pure species and hybrids alike where it concerns snakes as this is something very new to me and very foreign. Dave P. I would love it if you would share either in private or on this page any information you have as to fertility of hybrid snakes. With many animals, that I have researched, hybrid males seem to be the ones lacking in fertility. Fertility being restored to the males after breeding back the hybrid female specimens to pure after a few generations.

What corn snake hybrids are there that are just plain infertile both ways from your experience or research?

When do you see infertility with hybrid males only... i.e. with what crosses and are some male hybrids sometimes fertile, but as a general rule not fertile?

I'm asking these questions as male hybrids if not fertile are not doing any damage to anyones breeding program in any way shape or form. Fertile females of course would be the only thing a hybridizer would be interested in if it is known that all males are sterile or most are sterile from a particular breeding. If sterility is a problem with males in the first 3generations of a hybrid... it would also make it very easy to tell if a hybrid had snuck into ones collection so to speak. One may only have to look at the fact that you have all infertile males or most of your males are infertile for instance to suggest that there may be some hybrid goings on in their past. This would be good information for anyone to have no matter which side of the fence they stand on or even if they are a fence sitter for that matter.