Regurge, 2nd Feeding

Hi! I have only had my okeetee male, Monty, for 8 days. I got him from Kathy Love and he was hatched 5-27-07, so he is about 7 months old. I have emailed her for advice, but I thought I would also post my situation here in case she does not get her email for awhile (she asked me to let her know if I had any trouble since this is our first snake).....

After having Monty for 3 days, we fed him one small thawed pinky, which he immediately took and ate fine. We fed him in a separate container and then put the container in his viv so he could crawl out on his own...we did not handle him. He did great.

Five days after that (this morning) we fed him another small pinky (Monty weighs 12g by the way, the pinky is so small it did not even register on the scale, so probably about 1g)...same scenario, he ate it right away and then we placed the container in the viv...have not touched him. In fact, we have been gone all day and when we came home I peeked in on him, and in the hide on the "cool" side I saw his pinky, regurged...it did not look digested at all, did not smell...and had gooey fluid next to it. Monty is laying under the aspen now, on the warm side.

Not sure why he regurged? His viv has a warm side (85-86F) using an UTH and thermostat. The warm side has 2 hides right over the warmest area. The substrate is aspen. The cool side also has a hide (which he seems to prefer, it is what he regurged in) and temp is about 72F. He also has other greenery and a curvy stick for climbing decor. His water is on the cool side, although I have never visibly seen him out drinking. We use bottled water. The pinky mouse was TINY both times, about 1 inch long & less then 1g, I could just see a slight bulge in him. Its back was slit. Of course, the first feeding he digested fine.....so now, I'm not sure what to do. Do I wait about 10 days and try again? Do I just feed a pinky head next time? I don't want anything to happen to him. Do I try the grapefruit seed extract in his water? I do have some, and I read on the forum about 3 drops per 1 cup of water.

I am attaching some pictures of our viv setup to see if you have any ideas. The pic with 2 hides (log and rock w/hole is the "warm" side) Will a 12g hatchling be okay for 10 days not eating? Is this too long/soon? We know not to be handling him at all....but we were not before either, only when we put him in feeding container. After, like I said...we put the whole container in viv so he could take his time exiting. One of the pics is of pinky mice we have to show you the size he was fed. Should we just use a head in 10 days? and if he does ok...when should we feed again? Thanks!! (my son is worried about him

Here's Kathy's FAQ on regurgitation;

Kathy Love FAQ's

FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:

I suspect your problem is probably not bad mice, but about handling too soon, feeding too soon or too large of a meal, a stomach "bug", or improper temps. If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info:
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn%20Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Thanks Janine!! Duh, you'd think I would have been smart enough to just go right to Kathy's website for advice!! Hee Hee...I was in a panic after I saw the regurge...I appreciate your common sense and help

No worries, Kathy's my total hero, because of her advice when Diamond Lil was a non-feeder following regurges.

I really hope your little one gets better.

(I really, really wanna say it was the Dallas stuff in the background that made him do it as I am a Skins fan.) What a shame it isn't that easy. Keep us posted on the progress.

Originally Posted by ZoologyMajor

I really hope your little one gets better.

(I really, really wanna say it was the Dallas stuff in the background that made him do it as I am a Skins fan.) What a shame it isn't that easy. Keep us posted on the progress.

LOL...maybe that's what it is!! Actually, Monty is my son's snake (he is 12), so I can't really question the decor, ya know? Hmmmm.... maybe a nice Colts banner would do the trick

You have a really nice enclosure, but it might be a bit too big for the little guy. He might be lost in there and unable to find the warm side. Or he might be stressed out because he has such a large space. I recommend a smaller cage for him for awhile, then once he's more established he can move into the larger tank. You could keep him in shoe boxes to keep the cost down.

Other than that it seems like you did everything right. Kathy also sells Nutribac, and if you didn't already get that from her, buy some and use it on your next feed.
Edit: Yes, a head in 10 days dusted with Nutribac sounds great.

Thanks for the addtl input! Kathy emailed me as well with similar feedback...that he might be a little lost in such a new, big environment. She recommended taking the hides all out and putting one paper towel roll insert cut in half lengthwise in there as the only hide, 1/2 on the warm and 1/2 on the cold....this way he is more likely to stay in one place but can easily choose the right temp. She also recommended putting paper up on the glass to make him temporarily feel more secure. She said if he regurges a second time she will send me some Nutribac. Thanks again!

hope he gets better