king snake influence in tessera morph?

Rich, thanks for the info. You've definitely produced more corns than I have come close to, but to date I've never seen the ventral variation in any line even com close to tesseras. Thanks for sharing your insight!

When I bred Vanay (charcoal) to Lacy (pewter) some of the babies can out with full checkers, a few with small splits, a bunch with a large split.... and then one like this.



The checkers are pushed to the outer edges, but are also occupying almost every scale going down *both* sides. If this guy had normal checkers going across his belly would have been almost solid black.

Originally Posted by Mitchell Mulks

However, with tessera clutches it's common knowledge that they don't have a set ventral pattern, that in fact their ventral pattern can be anything under the sun; and all that variation can be seen in the same clutch. That's not normal, and it's consistent with only tesseras.

These hatchlings are from one clutch of Keys lineage:

This clutch also had a wide range of belly checks...including this girl.





siblings

Originally Posted by DMong

I agree, as soon as someone breeds one of those KNOWN Cal. king x corn hybrids to a Tessera, and they all come out with identical Tessera phenotypes, then it would prove something other than a snake looking intermediate between the two parent species.

What would someone do with them once they produced them?

Hybrid visual Tess may easily be passed off as regular Tess, leading to lots of "new genes" being discovered in the future. Color alone is not a het marker. Many 3/4 corns have regular corn head markings.

I can see a future where some threads may be titled "Hey, look what I found at the big chain petshop!" & "What morph is this?"

It's moments like this when I am glad I've acquired all our critters directly from the breeders, without them having passed through a lot of different hands to get to the petstore

Originally Posted by dave partington

What would someone do with them once they produced them?

Hybrid visual Tess may easily be passed off as regular Tess, leading to lots of "new genes" being discovered in the future. Color alone is not a het marker. Many 3/4 corns have regular corn head markings.

I can see a future where some threads may be titled "Hey, look what I found at the big chain petshop!" & "What morph is this?"

It's moments like this when I am glad I've acquired all our critters directly from the breeders, without them having passed through a lot of different hands to get to the petstore

I totally agree. I don't condone propagating and dispersing hybrids at ALL. I was just discussing that very issue over the phone, and THAT is precisely what would inevitably happen. It would only produce more hybrids and thus even MORE confusion and problems than there already is in the hobby.

"Hey, look what I found at the big chain petshop!" & "What morph is this?" ..... is unfortunately already a very common everyday occurrence. Certainly not from just pet stores, but virtually anywhere else.

In short, the only responsible thing to do if it was done would be to cull the resultant offspring no matter what the outcome is, but I don't believe in producing animals only to kill them off once produced either. No matter how this issue is sliced, I am dead set against man-made hybridization.....period! This is also why I keep saying "if it WASN'T always constantly done in the first place, there would never be an of these hybrid issue or threads.......but since it so ridiculously common-place now, .............there are always these hybrid issues. It's a very sad and undeniable fact, and all the countless and irresponsible hybridizers are the ones to thank for all this. I don't support ANY form of it, and never will.

Originally Posted by DMong

In short, the only responsible thing to do if it was done would be to cull the resultant offspring no matter what the outcome is, but I don't believe in producing animals only to kill them off once produced either. No matter how this issue is sliced, I am dead set against man-made hybridization.....period! This is also why I keep saying "if it WASN'T always constantly done in the first place, there would never be an of these hybrid issue or threads.......but since it so ridiculously common-place now, .............there are always these hybrid issues. It's a very sad and undeniable fact, and all the countless and irresponsible hybridizers are the ones to thank for all this. I don't support ANY form of it, and never will.

Amen to that.

I agree, it's the irresponsible, well unscrupulous maybe be the better term, hybridizers that cause all this suspicion.

If people were honest (both regular breeders and hybridizers,) all this suspicion and finger pointing would happen much less. People are always going to question new genes, but in the absence of questionable ethics, they don't have a leg to stand on.

Remember the microscale corns? Found in a clutch by a regular owner/breeder. Ok, so the odds are against the smalltime breeders but if a completely new mutation cropped up purely by chance for her, why does every other time it happens lead to speculations about hybrids?

Originally Posted by diamondlil

Remember the microscale corns? Found in a clutch by a regular owner/breeder. Ok, so the odds are against the smalltime breeders but if a completely new mutation cropped up purely by chance for her, why does every other time it happens lead to speculations about hybrids?

Because it is human nature to question.

When there is no response or the infamous "it just happened" response, we look for logic. Logic to each person is different, means and so forth of reasoning occur... hence this lovely debate

It makes me laugh when the "puriest" and the "hybrid" people argue. Both have there own reasoning and neither know more than the other. But it happens....So buckle up and enjoy the ride

I also noticed he removed his "Hybrid theroy"

http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=65&de=972158

Originally Posted by ecreipeoj

Tessera Hybrid Theory:
I have been breeding Tesseras for two years now. Based upon my results, I believe Tesseras are a result of genes from the Striped California King Snake. Striped Super Corns (75%/25% Corn/Striped California King Snake) are similar, with 87% Corn blood, 94%, and 97%, Corn Snake Blood, it is very possibe that we would produce Tesseras, carrying the Dominant Striped Gene of the California King Snake?

We often hear about “markers” that can indicate a Corn Snake has hybrid blood in them, but what are they? They must exist because we use the lack of them to prove new mutant genes in our Corns are from pure Corn Snake lines, and we see them in Corn Snake Hybrid lines. Markers are things we normally see in our Corn Snake offspring, and Markers can be abnormal as well. The following is a list of markers that I have observed with Tesseras.

1) The belly patterns of Tesseras are inconsistent. A combination of belly patterns between Corn Snakes and Striped California King Snakes are produced. Plain bellies, checker bellies and a combination of the two are common. In fact, a mix of just about every belly pattern I have ever seen on a Corn Snake. There is no simple genetic reason for this. If no mutant gene is effecting the belly pattern, is this a case of reverse selective breeding? All of our other pattern genes have consistent belly patterns. With the addition of Banded, Motley belly patterns can have some checkers.

2) The belly patterns of the Non-Tessera siblings are inconsistent. The same belly patterns on Tesseras can be produced. We should get a checkered Corn Snake belly pattern, but the plain belly pattern of the Striped California King Snake is having influence. There is no simple genetic reason for this. We can exclude Het Diffused, Het Masque, Het Border-less which all produce a split belly pattern, and the Non-Tess sibling belly patterns are still inconsistent. Again, is reverse selective breeding is occurring.

3) Tesseras and Non-Tessera offspring are brighter and cleaner than Corns. They are missing an entire layer of dirty wash that most Corns have. It can not be bred away. There is no simple genetic reason for this. Most of the Corn Snake Breeders that have bred Tessera have ask me about this and wanted to know my opinion about it. My initial joking response was “They are hybrids, but I won’t tell”. As far as I know, ALL Breeders who have produced Tessera have seen this in the clutches they produced.. No one has came forward to claim this is not the case as far as I know. If Tesseras are 97% Corn Snake why hasn’t this been bred out of them? What other causes of this dirty wash removal can we describe? Kathy Love Okeetees do not have this dirty wash, but when outcrossed to other Okeetees does it reappear? I believe the answer to that is yes, so it seems as if we have a recessive gene that can remove the dirty wash. The same is true of Pied-Sided. Since it can not be bred out of Tessera lines, there has to be another answer. Have you ever seen a Striped Desert Phase California King Snake? They do not have any dirty wash and their white color is as white as new snow. California King Snakes and Corn Snakes are not a perfect match genetically. There offspring are not genetically the same as Corn Snakes. Perhaps the cause of the dirty wash on Corn Snakes was not recreated when the first hybridization occurred and it can from that time on, never be produced. This seems to be the case with Tesseras. When you breed a Striped Super Corn X Corn Snake, you produced 50% Striped Super Corns and 50% Super Corns. Do the Super Corns have the missing layer of color we see in Non-Tess siblings. I believe the answer to this question is yes. Why are Non-Tessera siblings brighter and cleaner than Normal Corns, I believe it is because they are 97% Super Corns.

4) Color and pattern differences are sometimes observed on the Non-Tessera siblings that is not consistent with Normal Corns or their mutants. Anery Corns especially, can be quite different. There is no simple genetic reason for this. The black and white of the California King Snake is still having some influence. Breeders of Super Corns say that it is difficult to produce color variations because it is difficult to breed away the black color of the California King Snake. This could be debated forever. All I can say is that I have been breeding snakes since 2003 and Corn Snake for 25 years, so I have seen 10,000 of thousands of hatchling Corns. I can take into account just about every variable we see in the variation of our Corn Snake offspring and Non-Tessera offspring are unlike normal Corn hatchlings. I have personally put Non-Tessera siblings in a bucket of a 100 Normals Corns going to the wholesaler, and you can pick out the Non-Tessera siblings as if they were hypos.

Conclusion: Non-Tessera siblings are brighter and cleaner than Normal Corns. This has not been disputed as far as I know. This is a Marker of hybridization. There is no simple genetic reason for this. If you will not accept this Marker as proof of hybridization, then you are not interested in Pure Mutant Corn Snakes, you are only interested in maintaining the illusion, that our Mutant Corns Snake Gene Pool is pure Corn Snake. The same thing happened with Ultramel. They discovered the gene by breeding the Corn Snake carrying the Ultra gene to a Gray/Corn Snow. We all know that Ultramels would be produced. They tried to cover this up, by saying they also bred them to Corns Snakes, but did not say Amel or Snow Corns. They did not know that Ultra and Amel are alleles and needed to be specific to cover their lies.

Where are we today with our Corn Snake Hobby? A State of Our Union so to speak. We have our General Corn Snake Gene Pool that has had hybrid genes introduce to it. This Pool of genes contains ALL of our Mutant Genes and the best breeders in the world and first time breeders have been producing all of the Mutants that we marvel at. Creamcicles have been bred in the pool, Ultramels have been bred into the pool, Hybrids have been bred into the pool and now Tesseras have been bred into the pool. People come and go and just about the only permanent records are contained in the ACR. Where are all of the hybrids that have been produced and all of their offspring right now? Most of them are in the General Corn Snake Gene Pool.

A wild population of Corn Snake exist. We could argue the purity of this Corn Snake Pool of genetics, but isn’t this what we base the existence of Corn Snakes on? If you want to be a purest, isn’t this something you could support? Locality Corns like Hunt Club Okeetees for example are pure Corns aren’t they? Currently we have several mutant genes that are traceable to wild caught Corns. Anery, Lava, Sunkissed, Golden, Palmetto, RedCoat, Border-less, and we will find others. Each a Locality Corn or from wild caught lines so pure as we can get. We can create some very nice Morphs from this gene pool and keep track of them with the ACR.

What am I going to do with Tesseras now? I would be lying big time if I were to tell you that I wasn’t just pissed the @#$% off when I came to the realization that my Tesseras are the Super Corn we have all been dreaming of. I wanted to sell all of them off cheap and preserve my collection of Corn Snakes genes the way they are. My collection is unique. It has been registered with the ACR since it was founded, so I know all of my breeders origins.

Today, I realize that Tesseras are just one more addition to our General Corn Snake Gene Pool that are pretty amazing if you look at them from just about any captive stand point. Tessera lines are as hardy as any line of snake you can breed. They grow faster, breed with very high success and the dominant gene allows us to jump generations right into the most amazing new morphs ever created with Corns. What am I going to do with Tesseras now? The answer is easy, create new Super Corn Snake Mutants faster and better than any other Tessera Breeder in the world, or so I will try. Who can produce the most amazing Tessera combines imaginable? We can’t change what has been done, but we can use it to our benefit.

We all make up whatever our hobby will be. The economy sucks right now and we are not helping our case in anyway shape or form. I think we can make our own economy, but we have to start believing in something again and perhaps not fight so much amongst ourselves. I am going to price Tesseras for the price they will sell at, and offer higher priced Tesseras for the investor. Will Tesseras be produced at a faster rate than recessive Mutants? The answer is super fast, but Tesseras are going to take us to a level of new one of a kind Mutant combines like we have never dreamed about before. This hobby is not dieing, we just need to start believing in what we are doing again.

The ACR is the only way I have kept my sanity with this hobby. I know where my General Corn Snake Genes came from. I know which lines are traceable to wild caught lines, (Landrace Lines) and I know which Corns are from Tessera lines like the ones in the photos attached. (RC Tess het SK Blood, RC Tess het St Lav ph Hypo, YF RA Tess het Carmel ph Lava, RA An Tess het Amel Motley, RZ Tess het Frase Blood Line) I also know which lines are Stargazer free and which is suspect.

My 2013 Breeding Season will start soon, and I have plans like all of the rest of you. I will be testing for Stargazer, testing the Golden Corn Gene to Caramel, producing new Landrace lines, producing Mutant Combines and breeding Tesseras to my Mutant females to produce new one of a kind Tesseras Combines. I spent two years breeding Tesseras and I am not backing out now. I have produced 100’s of Tesseras and have held back 25 with cool hets each year of production. My main interest in this hobby is producing new morphs which Tessera accelerated times four. This year I will produced new morphs that nobody else has in the whole world, and so will many of you. This is pretty cool if you ask me. I have not forgot about my love for pure Corns. I am currently on a task to establish a pool of Landrace Mutant Genes. I am still a purist, but I don’t have to limit myself to that. I can do two things at once and perhaps three, Landrace, Mutants, and Tesseras and keep track of them as I go. It time, there will be no reason to separate Mutants and Tesseras. Tesseras will remove the dirty wash from most of them very soon and it will be the new norm in our Mutant Gene Pool.

My Tesseras are the same as your Tesseras. I was blessed with something that causes Reverse Aztec Tesseras Patterns, at least I like them. It seems to be co-dominant. I produced the perfect Pattern Tesseras from my original Tessera, Reverse Aztecs and Aberants. The most likely cause of this is Border-less. (Tess het Border-less, Aberrant, Tess homo Border-less, Reverse Aztec, Okeetee Tess, perfect stripes). My original Tess seems to be het for Anery, Hypo, Yellow Factor, RedCoat and Border-less. He was tested to just about every Mutant gene I have and the results are pretty amazingly mixed up to say the least. He was a result of a breeding between a Tess x Silverqueen if my guesses are correct. You can blame Rich Z for all of my odd ball Markers due to the Silverqueen if you like, except other breeders of Tess are seeing similar results as mine. The Siverqueen added Anery, Hypo, Yellow Factor and Border-less, and the Tess added RedCoat from Okeetee lines.

The lack of Markers were used to prove Tesseras are pure Corn, but the Markers I see prove just the opposite. We don’t need/use DNA proof to prove new mutant genes are pure Corn and we don’t need it to prove they are hybrids as well. Markers either exist, or the term has been used as propaganda to maintain the illusion that our General Corn Snake Gene Pool is pure Corn. I prefer answers, facts, and the truth, over an illusion. There are answers to all of our genetic questions about our Corns, we just have to discover them.
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