Chat room - listen up, please

Brent said:

Kudo's to you hana! The description you gave is light years away from how others get treated in CS_chat. I think that's what Rich is referring to. Nowhere in your story did I see "gtfo" 10 lines after a question being asked. Oh, and wonderful use of the ignore button! I give your post a 9.8!! :crazy02:

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Thank you, but I do think you've failed to realize the points Carlos made. They're very valid, but I can understand how they wouldn't be to someone who isn't a regular.

And no, you won't see me tell someone to 'gtfo' or what have you, but you will see me tell someone to 'run along' if I've had it with them. Also, I refuse to take someone seriously who only bothers to ask their questions like,"dos n e 1 no wht to fed a sank????!!!!????!!1111". Sorry, but if that's all the effort they're going to put into their questions, I have no time for them. Not even to mention the fact that I can't hardly read it properly enough to know what they're saying. If that makes me an elitist, fine. I'll not lose any sleep over it.


hana

hana said:

Thank you, but I do think you've failed to realize the points Carlos made. They're very valid, but I can understand how they wouldn't be to someone who isn't a regular.

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I'm sorry, but what exactly gives you that impression? :shrugs: These were my last responses to Carlos just last night . . .

Drizzt80 said:

Agreed, and not arguing that point at all. I am arguing the representation that was made from CS.com members.

I do understand where you're coming from.

Ah, but this does tend to be the issue at hand quite often ("Use the search button for crying out loud!"), and this issue has an underlying stench of the same problem, trolls or not.

Agreed, but two problems . . .

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Also, I refuse to take someone seriously who only bothers to ask their questions like,"dos n e 1 no wht to fed a sank????!!!!????!!1111". Sorry, but if that's all the effort they're going to put into their questions, I have no time for them. Not even to mention the fact that I can't hardly read it properly enough to know what they're saying. If that makes me an elitist, fine. I'll not lose any sleep over it.

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Right, and wouldn't attempt to argue that point. The point I am arguing (someone save me cause the Vinster made the same point :eek1: ) is do they deserve the atrocious behavior that was displayed in the chat logs? Even my 'discussions' with the Vinman have not been that vile.

D80

My my, what a discussion!

From my guess, it all started because nobody replied to Joe_Jo with even “nope, don’t know anything” which would have been courteous and a simple way to answer.
I think the GTFO was premature and uncalled for at the time. As to what followed, Joe_Jo was being a tw@t and extremely rude. For the ones that kept on taking the p*ss out of him, that might have been amusing at the time but it wasn’t nice at all.

I do not Chat all the time but only sometimes and now less than before but not because of the Trolls / fauna / newbies / CS members / etc…

The things is, if you are not in Chat that much you might not know that this person is a regular / known Troll and you would think that the “welcome” is inappropriate to say the least.

A few months back there was a Troll called Lizardss (anyone remember?) and we (me included) did what packs (hey Jazz ) do to gang up and try to “flush” him out and even resorted to private chats. If someone would have come in before the private chats, he/she would have thought we were a bunch of stupid / rude / cruel people but we were just defending a nice / friendly / full of humour / pleasant / relaxing chat room.

My points being:
* it is better to even answer quickly to someone we suspect is a Troll.
* you cannot know what it is all about from one chat snipped
* don’t jump to conclusions and get defensive or offensive
* as said by someone else in this thread, do not Ass-U-Me ( it makes an Ass of U and Me )

Well, that’s me done, have a nice day all

So Ignore is bad because it makes a conversation that you don't wish to follow.... hard to follow?

I've been in there, I've seen it. There is no excuse for being that rude to someone because they are rude. It kind of corresponds to what I'm trying to teach my 11 year old son right now. No one can control your actions, and two wrongs don't make a right. "I did this bad thing, but he did that bad thing", is not a justified defense.

I'm not lecturing, and I'm not saying my hands are clean. However, it's an act of maturity to recognize constructive criticism, and agree with it.

To me, it doesn't seem like Rich is suggesting you give all the trolls a big hug, just use a little diplomacy. The best way to get rid of a troll is to ignore them completely. Most of us only pick up parts of the conversation we are interested in chat anyway, and it's pretty easy to tell who is participating in the same conversation. I've used Ignore before, and it wasn't too difficult to tell when other people where engaging in the conversation I was interested in, and when they were talking to a troll.

One thing for sure, chat will never be the same for me knowing how many people save chat sessions. Not because I am afraid that I'm breaking any rules, but because a lot of times I will temper what I say according to who is in the room. I guess I will no longer be as naive to think what I say among "friends" will stay that way. Everything I type could be saved and shown to people I'm not as comfortable with. I guess I'll have to stick with PM's for that.

carol said:

One thing for sure, chat will never be the same for me knowing how many people save chat sessions. Not because I am afraid that I'm breaking any rules, but because a lot of times I will temper what I say according to who is in the room. I guess I will no longer be as naive to think what I say among "friends" will stay that way. Everything I type could be saved and shown to people I'm not as comfortable with. I guess I'll have to stick with PM's for that.

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Yep. This is the biggest lesson I've gleaned from this debacle as well.

carol said:

So Ignore is bad because it makes a conversation that you don't wish to follow.... hard to follow?

I've been in there, I've seen it. There is no excuse for being that rude to someone because they are rude. It kind of corresponds to what I'm trying to teach my 11 year old son right now. No one can control your actions, and two wrongs don't make a right. "I did this bad thing, but he did that bad thing", is not a justified defense.

I'm not lecturing, and I'm not saying my hands are clean. However, it's an act of maturity to recognize constructive criticism, and agree with it.

To me, it doesn't seem like Rich is suggesting you give all the trolls a big hug, just use a little diplomacy. The best way to get rid of a troll is to ignore them completely. Most of us only pick up parts of the conversation we are interested in chat anyway, and it's pretty easy to tell who is participating in the same conversation. I've used Ignore before, and it wasn't too difficult to tell when other people where engaging in the conversation I was interested in, and when they were talking to a troll.

One thing for sure, chat will never be the same for me knowing how many people save chat sessions. Not because I am afraid that I'm breaking any rules, but because a lot of times I will temper what I say according to who is in the room. I guess I will no longer be as naive to think what I say among "friends" will stay that way. Everything I type could be saved and shown to people I'm not as comfortable with. I guess I'll have to stick with PM's for that.

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carol they can still copy and paste your PM and send it in a emal to them selfs or just move it to a folder

Vinman said:

carol they can still copy and paste your PM and send it in a emal to them selfs or just move it to a folder

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Yes, but by now I think I have a pretty good idea of who would do that and who wouldn't.

One other thing I failed to mention.... The ONLY time Ignore was inconvenient was when I (in my sick terrible own way) was being entertained by how others were corresponding with a troll. I never took someone "off" of Ignore because I had problems understanding who was talking to who. I've taken them off because sometimes I find it funny to watch. So there's my dark secret, I have a feeling I'm not alone. A lot of us are "guilty by association". Maybe there's another lesson for me. I shouldn't sit back and be entertained by something and then feel innocent because "I'd never say that."

Frankly, Rich brought up valid points that I never thought of before. Then again the example he posted is a bit more harsh than what I'm used to seeing. I've also been in chat many times when a troll was dealt with appropriately and everyone was very respectful. I don't think it's a difficult thing to ask that we don't stoop to the trolls level.

Carol said:

So there's my dark secret, I have a feeling I'm not alone. A lot of us are "guilty by association". Maybe there's another lesson for me. I shouldn't sit back and be entertained by something and then feel innocent because "I'd never say that."

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I guess I sort of fit into this category, as well. As soon as things started to get rough, I backed out. I wanted no part of it and would not have said anything that rude to anyone. I have on occasion, however, laughed at some of the things that have been said. I was wrong for doing that...

Great point Carol. If I could give you some rep points, I would.

carol said:

Frankly, Rich brought up valid points that I never thought of before. Then again the example he posted is a bit more harsh than what I'm used to seeing. I've also been in chat many times when a troll was dealt with appropriately and everyone was very respectful. I don't think it's a difficult thing to ask that we don't stoop to the trolls level.

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You can deal with a Troll and stay polite, that is very true and this is what I do, I do not find it justify to insult or call people names.

Rich Z said:

Well, honestly folks, if I continue to hear people on this site refer to those "Fauna People" in such a condescending manner, then obviously I need to take down the bridge that connects these two sites. Need I remind you that the chat was installed originally for the FaunaClassifieds site, and I only had this site tied into that chat system because a lot of you ASKED for a chat? If I take down the bridge, who do you think is going to be on the wrong side of that chasm?

Seriously, from the amount of rancor it is causing and exposing an obvious conflict between the two sites, is it really in my best interests to have this mud wrestling arena at all? I'll tell you what, I am SERIOUSLY considering just pulling the plug on the chat and being done with it. Obviously some people here cannot handle a real time online conversation such as the chat provides, and I certainly can do well enough without this sort of OPTIONAL aggravation.

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I said I was done posting on this thread, but I just really wanted to comment on two things.

First off, we have no problem with 'the Fauna people' in general. It just happens to be that ALL of the trolls are FROM Fauna. I mean---what else are we supposed to refer to them as? I don't believe we've ever emailed you a chat log about someone trolling the room with a _CS moniker.

If you take down chat, everyone suffers, not just us. Connie, Serp, Egg and myself started the whole 'chatness' after it was put up 2 years ago. We would sit in the chat room all day so that it would show up top that people were in chat. It worked---chat is always busy every single night. Unfortunately, it worked too well. People from Fauna would come in, see nobody in the lobby but 15 people in the cornsnakes room and would jump right in wanting/demanding to talk about boas, leopard geckos, bearded dragons, etc. I really don't see how that is acceptable behavior. To expect an entire room of people to instantly stop what they are talking about to listen/discuss what you want to talk about is juvenile at best. Just last night, someone came in from Fauna, posted a link to his bearded dragon for sale, and left. Imo, that's spamming. Maybe nobody else considers it that, I don't know.

This really bothers me, though.

Obviously some people here cannot handle a real time online conversation such as the chat provides, and I certainly can do well enough without this sort of OPTIONAL aggravation.

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We've handled it perfectly fine for what, 2 years? Sure, we've sent you chat logs when people have been flat out spamming or been trolling, because you have asked us to. Normally the problem is handled and the situation is cleared up. For some reason, there seem to be certain times of the year when spamming and trolling is at it's peak---maybe now is one of those times, I don't know.

I apologize for saying 'gtfo' out to Joe_Jo, but I'm not sorry for saying it. Maybe we jumped the gun, and maybe his question was for real---but I highly doubt it. I've been in that chat room for a VERY long time and it's pretty easy to ID a troll when they come in, but for those of you who think that my words have somehow affected this site, you personally, or your reputation as a _CS user, I apologize.

Joejr14 said:

First off, we have no problem with 'the Fauna people' in general. It just happens to be that ALL of the trolls are FROM Fauna. I mean---what else are we supposed to refer to them as? I don't believe we've ever emailed you a chat log about someone trolling the room with a _CS moniker.

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I see your point here, but there is need for caution how we label people. I'm sure there are more than a few people that we can all think of that could go into a "Fauna" chat room with a CS label that we would be horrified to see as our representative. Without dropping names, how would we all feel if some of them went and caused trouble and they started complaining about all us "Cornsnake people".

Keep in mind every family has bad apples so you don't want a few members to effect your opinion on the whole family.

Joejr You are a good guy and very smart. Like I posted and a few others did It dont hurt to be nice when someone intrudes on you convosation and tell them nicely that what they are doing and send them somewhwre else like kingsnake .com where they have seperate chats for diffrent herps. Just think when you first started in the hobby and needed help . I'm sure if you guys do this the troll will go away a lot faster and have respect for you. You may never know someday they might be into corns or the allready can be and remember how nasty you were to them in their of need
peace Vinny

First off, we have no problem with 'the Fauna people' in general.

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This is true. Alicia (Mooing Tricycle) comes in occasionally and nobody picks a fight with her. She was all happy that we remembered her name.

To add to that transcript, the conversation at that time was about a snake Caroline hatched. I was trying to explain why I thought it might not be a hypo. Immediately before Joe_Jo entered the room, this is what transpired:

stephen_CS: what color is its tongue?
CornCrazy_CS: He could still be a hypo okeetee "phase," Caroline...het caramel and lavender, possible het amel.
breedingcolors_CS: lol Stephen, sorry I don't know
Serpwidgets_CS: Heh heh
stephen_CS: check
CornCrazy_CS: Chuck was just being a butthead...
CornCrazy_CS: LOL
Serpwidgets_CS: No, I'm serious.
breedingcolors_CS: ok I'll have to get back to you on this one
Joe_Jo entered the room.
stephen_CS: butthead
CornCrazy_CS: LOL
Serpwidgets_CS: I think that is one of those snakes that will later "prove" that you can cross hypo X hypo and get non-hypos.

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I just thought that should be added because I'm sure that could have been taken out of context to make it look like stephen was calling the guy a butthead the instant he came in.


Anyway, here is my perspective on the chatroom: I think of it as "Corn Cheers."

As Katie said, when she comes in she is greeted with "Hi Katie" as opposed to "Hi PtDnsr." Everyone knows each others' names and addresses them by name.

It is not a group of strangers talking about corns all the time. Instead it's more like a bar or restaurant you'd go to after work for Happy Hour, to hang out, talk about your day, vent about your frustrations, your hopes and dreams, and sometimes talk shop about the things you have in common. I know a lot about the goings on in peoples' lives, what happened at work, how they feel about their jobs and certain relatives, what kind of music they like, what they are learning in school or want to study in college, and I barely know what any of their snakes are or if they even have a cornsnake.

The topic in there is not really "corns" it is "what is happening in your life? How was your day? What's new with you? Did you see this video clip on youtube?"

And people will also talk about threads that they read, and will link it in the chatroom so other people can read it. They will discuss the thread and sometimes a lot of people will end up replying to it because, well, they just read it and had something to say. Nobody sits around discussing "Hey, I will post this, then you post that, then the next person posts this..."

As far as the whole "clique" thing, if it really is some kind of exclusive club, this doesn't explain how Galen, and Louri, and Nancy, and Candace, and Greg, and Page came into the room once and were instantly "part of the clique" and greeted by their names the second time they came into the chat room. These are all people who just came in recently and are already "in."

Also, if it were a clique, I wouldn't have defended Elle when Ryan was trying to roast her for cohabbing her corns. Nor would I have said nice things about Vinny. Oh and BTW when Vinny came in last night, Carlos said hi and tried to strike up a conversation with him.

When people come in and they join the conversation, there isn't a problem.

99% of the problems that come up are when someone comes in from fauna, and it's because of their attitude that we exist to answer their questions or that we are supposed to change the topic because they don't like corns. Maybe some of the people who are now saying "everyone is mean" were genuinely being mean and nasty and getting off by doing so. But some of us just feel like we are trying to enjoy Happy Hour at the bar with our friends and people come into the bar and say, "Oh you look like an auto mechanic, come on outside and listen to this funny noise my car is making and help me fix it." And yes, when someone acts crazy, after they leave people are going to look at each other and say "what was that guy's problem?"

I just find it amazing that people can read Joe_Jo's reaction, or clarinet's log of coming into a room where the topic is explicitly listed as "NOT BOAS!" and immediately ask "why can't I talk about boas," and call Taceas a bitch, and try to pick a fight with everyone, and after all that their reaction is, "gee, I wish more people with this mentality would hang around in the chat room." :shrugs:

hey serp If I'm the vinny you were alking about I was just being nosey to see what it is all about. Dont know how to use the damm thing. could'nt see any convo going on and got right off. Dont have no clue on how to get in the convo . So I want carlos to know I had no idea the he was trying to talk to me. so tell him I was not ingnoring him . I will try agin one day but like I said before Idf you get no responce from me it is the fact I dont know what I'm doing.

OK. This is striking a nerve with me. Sorry to post so much. It just occurred to me and I want to explain why this subject is taking my interest so much....
I've been a bit disturbed for quite a few weeks now. Not long ago, I actually had a member who frequents both this site and the "other" cornsnake forum, email me. In that email I was asked why I don't spend more time on the other forum since it now has less petty bickering and arguing than this site. Hence to them it was more desireable because there is less "stuff" to sift through.

I was very saddened that someone could feel the the other site is better. I think it would greatly improve this site if we all tried harder to be a little more diplomatic. If you aren't interested in a thread, don't reply. I don't see the need for replying just to badger trolls. I'm not on a soapbox here, I've been trying ways to improve my own posts ever since I got the email. I realize this is a bit off topic since it is regarding mostly posts and not chat, but the same principle applies.

I think many feel this site is "complete" as it is, and anyone else who enters is a newbie or unimportant. There are many people out there with tons of knowledge and experience that we could all benefit from if they became a participating member. I'd hate for some of them to come in to one of the childish ranting threads and decide it's not a worth while place for them to visit. I remember some people gave Joe Pierce the "who are you coming out of the wood work" treatment when he first came, and look at all the super info and input we have gotten from him over the years. :shrugs:

Regarding Chat, I think Serps post was great on summing up the situation. However, using the same scenario.... If someone comes up to you in a bar and asks you to look at his car, you would most likely respectfully decline. I doubt the whole group would get up and start calling names and saying "gtfo". Or maybe you are the bar brawling type and you would. In either case, the bar owner would see you kicked out for the inappropriate behavior no matter who started it. He doesn't want the other customers that are observing to get "scared away". Likewise, the bar owner is giving us a warning to handle matters differently.

What she said~ yep. Thanks Carol

carol said:

Regarding Chat, I think Serps post was great on summing up the situation. However, using the same scenario.... If someone comes up to you in a bar and asks you to look at his car, you would most likely respectfully decline. I doubt the whole group would get up and start calling names and saying "gtfo". Or maybe you are the bar brawling type and you would. In either case, the bar owner would see you kicked out for the inappropriate behavior no matter who started it. He doesn't want the other customers that are observing to get "scared away". Likewise, the bar owner is giving us a warning to handle matters differently.

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Sure, but would someone walk up to you in a bar and go, "Yo M-fer, wuts up man?! I GOT MY CAR OUTSIDE COM LOOK AT IT FOR ME, AIIIGHT?!

What would your response be to that?

You're in chat enough, Carol. You know that there are two totally different reactions from _CS users to people who post like an adult, and people who post like: DOES NE HERE HAVE ANY SALLYMEANDERS 4 SELL?!

Joejr14 said:

Sure, but would someone walk up to you in a bar and go, "Yo M-fer, wuts up man?! I GOT MY CAR OUTSIDE COM LOOK AT IT FOR ME, AIIIGHT?!

What would your response be to that?

You're in chat enough, Carol. You know that there are two totally different reactions from _CS users to people who post like an adult, and people who post like: DOES NE HERE HAVE ANY SALLYMEANDERS 4 SELL?!

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I probably wouldn't respond at all, unless I felt physically threatened atm. However, in chat, there's no chance of me being physically threatened so it would be appropriate for me to behave the same and not respond at all.

I am in there a lot, and I understand everyone's side. I also have seen trollers egged on for hours, and I have seen trollers ignored and they quickly disappear.

So people who post like an adult get a response, people who don't, won't get a response. Not only is Rich the bar keep, but I have personally seen the method he is suggesting work many times. So if the "boss" comes up with a solution that works, why on earth would we fight it? Sure you can keep saying "gtfo" but in my best Dr. Phil..... "How's that working for you?" You post as if your intentions are to make these people go away, yet you say things in chat that you KNOW will provoke them to stay longer and become more abrasive.

So Mr. Gangsta comes up to me and says, "Yo M-fer, wuts up man?! I GOT MY CAR OUTSIDE COM LOOK AT IT FOR ME, AIIIGHT?!

I highly doubt screaming, yelling, and telling him to get lost would do anything but prolong my encounter with him. However, if I decline quietly and don't respond to his attempts to get me agitated, my chances of him leaving asap are greatly increased. Maybe it's a bit of psychology you won't understand unless you're an old folk.

You are only making yourself look like part of the problem. I strongly believe that if everyone had been respectful to the trolls and then posted examples to Rich, he would be a lot more sympathetic to your cause right now.

Vinnie, keep in mind when you come in that you may just hit a lull in the conversation when no one is posting. If people are speaking, it just pops up in the window. Sometimes conversation is so rapid fire you can barely keep up, sometimes people step away to feed snakes or grab something to eat. Hang around next time for a bit. Say "Hello".

Joe is right about how the chat routine got started. It just took a couple people not worried about being the only person in the room to sit there for a couple weeks and suddenly it became a habit and people started chatting regularly. Now 95% of the activity on the chat system is from CS. I've commented to Chuck multiple times that I wish some of the (for lack of a better term, not in a derogatory tone) "boa people" would try the technique as there are quite a few people into boas that visit the lobby and I think they would quickly have a group of regulars just like the corn room. Not that I think """"boa people"""" shouldn't come into the corn room, I've enjoyed plenty of boa genetics talk with Josh and Bryon and a few others who were truly wanting to learn real genetics, but that I think they would enjoy having a “Boa Cheers”, too. I know the leopard gecko people do meet every once in a while, too.

You get out of chat what you put into it. If you come in and don't speak, it's hard to join the flow and you'll feel like you aren't on the "in". Likewise, people who walk in, say, "Hey all, first time here..." and jump into the conversation get accepted almost instantly if they speak like normal human beings and don't walk in with a chip on their shoulder, a demand that all revolves around them, or an intermittent spewing of inane profanities or unintelligible dribble and leet speak like we get so often. There is no clique as some like to say, there's a group of friends, some long-time, some not-so. Yes we like to rib each other, yes the topic goes way way off of corns. I think people take more offense to boa-speak / bp-speak due to a group that were coming in from the lobby with "Hey Cornholes" attitudes, "wut cha want with those worms, anywayzzzz!!!111oneoneone". That doesn't excuse being rude to new people, but it's a bit of an explanation of why some people may have a bit more of a hair-trigger for such things.

This last 2 weeks has seen an escalation in number of trolls, many with the same mannerisms, which speaks of one or a couple people who have nothing better to do than to come in and annoy the chat room because they know they'll get a rise. With that, the hostility in the chat when someone comes in acting like the recent rash of trolls has risen in accord, unfortunately. Perhaps a more widespread use of the ignore feature is called for? I don’t know the solution, but I do agree with the idea that it’s sad to stoop to a trollish level ourselves (and I include myself in this statement). Let the trolls make a fool of themselves all on their own, they always do. They are attention seekers at heart, as we well know, so a lack of attention perhaps is called for. It’s a thought, but unfortunately this method doesn’t work so well when there are people standing around feeding the trolls and all it takes is one or two troll feeders to keep them lapping it up. The whole conversation then eventually derails into troll jousting and ousting.

I guess I don’t know what the answer is, but bringing playground fights to Rich will only succeed in us losing the chat room, which I think would be a loss. We’re mature enough to handle this one, guys, if we drop the anger, drop the righteous attitude, drop the hypocrisy, use our heads and get back to “Cheers” again. Perhaps the nightly happy hour meetings should just go right to a private “Cheers” room, leaving the corn snake room to people who wish focus on corn subjects/Q & A. If someone comes in and makes a serious gaff, warn them once or twice, then boot them. Leave the sarcasm and hatred and jousting amongst us friends who know how to take it in good fun and enjoy a good sparring.

Joe: Since noone else has done it yet, I at least accept your apology. You've gained back my respect for standing up and recognizing the problem I (at least) had with the chat logs. The language and 'abuse'.

Carol: All excellent posts!

Serp:

Serpwidgets said:

I just find it amazing that people can read Joe_Jo's reaction, or clarinet's log of coming into a room where the topic is explicitly listed as "NOT BOAS!" and immediately ask "why can't I talk about boas," and call Taceas a bitch, and try to pick a fight with everyone, and after all that their reaction is, "gee, I wish more people with this mentality would hang around in the chat room." :shrugs:

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Everything you posted is pretty much how I feel. The only thing I have a problem with is the final paragraph. In NO WAY have I said that Joe_jo's behavior was inexcusable. Thing is, I don't care about Joe_jo. I care about the people that hang out here at CS.com and are a reflection of myself since I consider myself a 'regular' here at CS.com. The reaction people have received in chat (by the logs) was pretty darn negative, and that doesn't just reflect on the 'Chat Regulars' so much as everyone at CS.com. Am I off base feeling that way? I don't think so cause I do view many of you as friends (even the Vinster to some extent :eek1: ). I'd prefer to see Joejr change his behavior in a positive manner than to worry about Joe_jo . . . I 'hang out' with Joejr, and I'd like to think he's a nice guy and not a jerk. That make enough sense?!

Lastly, I may be mistaken, but I though I read somewhere that the Fauna/CS chatroom was interlaced with IRC?! :shrugs: If so, the 'Faunites' that are coming in may not be from Fauna. Rich, is that the case? If so, can the 'Faunites' get a _FA added to the end of their nic to identify them?

D80