hypo motley.... motley crimson? amber?

just thinking out loud, really...

the 'hypo' effect of the motley gene can be seen in many of the corn snake morphs, but an actual hypo motley seems to be devoid of black pigment, unlike a "run of the mill" hypo, or crimson, or amber which are both also derrived from a combination of genes including hypo-A....

So would an amber (hypo+caramel) motley be visually distingushable from a "simple" caramel motley? And what about this new and unexplored hypo from the Loves? Will it behave in subtly different ways in conjunction with other morphs or is it a mimic of hypo-b? (If it is a mimic, I'd think it lives at the same location, so what happens when you get a snake that's homozygous recessive for BOTH hypo-A and B? Is it like genetic anti-matter? ROFL)

So some specific questions I'm interested in answering (I am organizing my breeding projects to try to ascertain this with some evidence, but for now conjecture may have to suffice) would be: can you distinguish an amber motley from a caramel motley? (I think so, but I'm not willing to try to predict the variance) and likewise, would you be able to distinguish a crimson motley and a miami motley?

It will be interesting to see if the new hypo-B is used to create distinct lines of the traditional hypo morphs. If it is a complete mimic of hypo-A there might actually be a sector in the market for crimson pairs that breed pure miamis, don't you think? not.

Anyone else want to make unbased claims or opinions on how the hypo-B thing might pan out? I'm actually more interested though in the ways motley plays with some of the hypo-moprhs... Of course pictures or other factual evidence might be nice too

Motley doesn't ALWAYS create a hypo effect. Here is a pic of a Miami Motley, I think a Crimson Motley would look quite different don't you? I also have a Milksnake Phase x Motley that I beileve is homozygous for motley that is a lot lighter but you can still tell she is not a hypo. I just hatced out some Miamis that are double het for Hypo and hopefully Motley (if milksnake phase mom is indeed homo Motley). So I'll know in a couple of years. Since some of the Milksnake Phase line have patternless bellys the only way to be sure is through breeding. Also another thought is, I have an anery motley that does not look like a ghost but that could be because she is from a hurricane motley clutch, bred to keep some dark borders. Don't know if this helps or makes more questions. Just my 2 cents.

thanks for the input, Carol!

That is one knock-out snake you have posted a pic of! You do create more questions, but the one answer that I think you also provide is that my efforts to discover first-hand what hypo-motley miamis and ambers look like might not be completely in vain. I'd like to do ghost and charcoal with motley also, but I don't have the space, and I know for a fact that lots of breeders are already hitting the market with these so more evidence frrom those lines will be forthcoming as more and more of them get their picture taken, although what I've seen to date is more in the "striped motley" variety than the more aberrant motley which I tend to prefer in my corns.... time will tell....

I think the "Motley Charcoal Ghost" triple combination will be very interesting indeed. Since I think of Rich Z as (said with the thick "Arnold" accent) "The Combinator" of the cornsnake world, I automatically assume that he's either working toward these or has already hatched some. Seems like he's always one or more steps ahead of everyone else.

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If Hypo A and B both lie at the same locus, breeding them to each other would most likely produce something other than normal, since the normal dominant gene is not present at that locus in that snake.

My question, assuming it is an independent mutation from the old Hypo, is how will it combine with other traits? Look at the difference between Charcoal and Anery vs Pewter and Anery Bloodred... There are "only" about a dozen mutations to be combined with Hypo B.

And what will a cornsnake look like when it is expressing both forms of hypo? And what about an ABHypo+Motley? (Will this be so light it's another "snow" type morph?)

I don't think very many of the morphs have been quite what they were predicted to look like. (Hence a morph with the name "Snow" which is pink, yellow, and oh yeah white)

IMO without knowing the actual mechanisms of these traits and how all of it interacts with the rest of the animal's biochemistry, there's no predicting any of it, and the only way to be sure would be to produce them.

Fortunately that way is more fun, too.

Serpwidgets said:

If Hypo A and B both lie at the same locus, breeding them to each other would most likely produce something other than normal, since the normal dominant gene is not present at that locus in that snake.

Click to expand...

Good point Serp! That hadn't dawned on me yet. And right after all you guys worked so hard to pound the stripe motley thing into my head.

In recent years I have been hatching out some subtly unusual looking animals from my Hypo Motley projecy. This is a photo of one of these animals here taken last year:



And this one was taken just yesterday of one that just hatched out:



In this second photo, you can see a regular Hypo and normal corns in the same picture to compare against. Of course, this animal hasn't had it's first shed yet, but you can still see some subtle but significant differences. Kind of looks inbetween a Hypo and a normal.

The interesting thing is that the few babies I have raised up have gotten significanly brighter in coloration. I might have to figure out where one or two of them are and get photos of them. This effect is much like what we see in some of the Motleys that tend to get brighter with maturity. And it is especially noticeable in the Caramel Motleys. So much so that it's hard to imagine an Amber Motley being any brighter.

Of course, I haven't proven whether it is actually a new gene or not, and it may be a few years before I feel confident enough to say one way or the other, but it seems to fit what I have been seeing. Animals that are basically no lighter than typical for that cultivar that get much brighter in color with size and age. Ordinary Hypos are pretty much the opposite in that they are VERY bright as babies, but as adults the difference isn't as noticeable.

We may have to start breaking down the Hypo effect into 'sunrise' and 'sunset' categories. One gets brighter, and the other gets darker over time. Of course, there is a likelihood that some of the effects we see can be Hypomelanistic-like effects that are selective in the colors that that they affect and more widespread than we realize. Look at a baby Miami Phase and compare it to an adult. Definitely a 'sunrise' effect in the red coloration. Sometimes understanding can only be reached by knowing how to look at something from a different angle.

Of course, this also begs the question of if it is another Hypo-like gene, what results will we get by combining it with either the type A or type B Hypo?

Personally, I think this is a very exciting time to be working with the corn snakes.

Rich, in lines such as your hypolavenders, do you ever mix and match the "types" of hypos? Do they give you the same effect combined with the lavender gene?

When you order a hypo, is it just a guess which type it is? I hear that the two aren't compatible. Thanks

When I sell a Hypomelanistic, at least for the near term, it is the type 'A' that everyone is used to seeing. Anything bred with the type 'B' (which I refer to as 'Sunkist' around here) will have a different name applied to it to keep the confusion down. For instance, combining Sunkist with Caramel, I will not call the results as 'Ambers', but will instead coin a new name for them. That was part of the discussion I had with Kathy about her calling this new genetic line as Hypomelanistic Okeetees. It was certain to cause massive confusion when people would breed one of her Hypomelanistic Okeetees to something like an Amber and get all normal colored snakes. I believe she has decided to rename her line as 'Sunkissed', since there was some concern about a copyrighted name infringement. OK, I admit it, the name came to my mind because I ALWAYS have a can of Sunkist orange soda sitting close at hand.

If I find that this new trait coming from the Motley line is in fact a new genetic trait, it too should be named in such a way that people working with them will not just assume they will be getting results which are highly unlikely.

Now one real problem is going to arise when I (and other breeders) get results from breeding animals that are het for more than one type of Hypomelanism. I likely will not be able to tell which ones are which genetic type just by eyeballing them. And certainly I have no plans to keep each and every one of them. So what do I label them as when I want to sell them? Certainly some may even be sold to a few wholesalers, and not even labeled, so there is quickly coming a time that unless you get Hypos directly from someone whom can trace their lineage back several generations, you cannot be guaranteed to be getting compatible Hypos for breeding purposes. Like it or not, this is coming.

Rich,

I would say it´s to late, we here in germany have already some of these b hypos from normal okeetees - I´m not sure but they look differnt, especially the head pattern so I wold say they are b hypos!
These b hypo gen must be very common as hidden gen in a lot of okeetees sold over the years???
Most of the breeders and people here do not know enough about corns to realize that they have something different, they will sell them as normal hypos...