HYBINO Phenotype Discussion

Blutengel, I'm glad this satisfies you. It probably is just the lighting and angle... or even that the photos got mixed up. If I could I'd snag a pair, but Hypo really isn't my thing, in spite of the great possibilities these hatchlings offer!

Thanks for the picture of the parents.

I'll yield to the general consensus. Must be something weird with the photos of the hatchlings. I agree that the fire male doesn't look like an ultramel, but then, he is in blue in those photos and you can't be 100% certain of his eye color...

This reminds me of what goes on back home, which is exactly why I left the management of a forum and online community.

I don't know R.Doc in person, but he has given me any reason what so ever not to trust him. He also seems to know his stuff better than most.

Mistakes are within the realm of possibility to be sure, but to start a debate that questions the seller's integrity or knowledge in an ad is rude. The manner which was used is also presumptuous- I can see the same picture on 4 different screens and let me tell you, I'll see 4 different snakes every time- according to the quality of the screen and settings.

The very fact that so many question marks and doubts were thrown here can dissuade people from buying from him.

If for some reason you are in doubt, you can contact said seller and explain your concern. You also should not present subjective perceptions as facts "their eyes are not red"- YOU don't see red, that doesn't mean that that's the truth.

It is unfair to question a breeder's reputation in the manner that was condoned here. Not when it started as an ad, not when the breeder was not asked in person and had a chance to reply.

I agree completely, Oren. Especially when one has no interest in purchasing the snakes. While it is not beyond the realm of possibility that a parent, purchased from someone else, could have additional previously unknown genes which could show up unexpectedly in the offspring, I'll stick with the principle of Occam's Razor- the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. The seller has seen the offspring and the parents in person and knows the true characteristics; the photographs are not the same as seeing the snakes in real life. The honesty of the seller is not in question, therefore we must believe his eye witness account as opposed to the photographs.

None of the people stating the eyes and/or borders used the word liar or lying first. Others interpreted a simple question about the looks of the animals as accusations and blew up the whole thing.

Since forums are for discussion, I just reacted to arguments and explored possibilities of what was going on, but never did I imply Doc misses knowledge or that he was cheating people. I just wanted to find out what was going on, mostly out of curiosity.

To be honest, I still doubt if the photo's of the hybino's are actually photo's of the hybino's since Doc seems very capable of taking great, accurate pictures of ultramels and amels, look over here:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=104546

What do the animals in the hybino pictures look most like looking at his own photo's he probably took with the same equipment in the same conditions: ultramels or amels? His photo's are never iffy and always well lit, I see amels (fire) where amels should be and ultramels were ultramels should be.

Just to be clear: I am not accusing Doc of lying, I guess a photo mix up is going on. I have done that myself.

I have to admit I could have asked: 'The eyes don't look red in the pictures and the borders don't look white, are you sure those are the right photo's?' I just never figured people would immediately think the worst of why I asked. I guess I'll have to put a permanent disclaimer in my sign saying: 'I'm not accusing people of anything bad, except when stated other wise'.'

Originally Posted by Kokopelli

This reminds me of what goes on back home, which is exactly why I left the management of a forum and online community.

I don't know R.Doc in person, but he has given me any reason what so ever not to trust him. He also seems to know his stuff better than most.

Mistakes are within the realm of possibility to be sure, but to start a debate that questions the seller's integrity or knowledge in an ad is rude. The manner which was used is also presumptuous- I can see the same picture on 4 different screens and let me tell you, I'll see 4 different snakes every time- according to the quality of the screen and settings.

The very fact that so many question marks and doubts were thrown here can dissuade people from buying from him.

If for some reason you are in doubt, you can contact said seller and explain your concern. You also should not present subjective perceptions as facts "their eyes are not red"- YOU don't see red, that doesn't mean that that's the truth.

It is unfair to question a breeder's reputation in the manner that was condoned here. Not when it started as an ad, not when the breeder was not asked in person and had a chance to reply.

You are 100% Correct. When this question was first brought up (about eye color), Doc answered it. He even stated that both parents' genetics were PROVEN by previous breedings to other animals. That didn't seem to satisfy some people. When you ask someone a question, they answer it, and you continue questioning/not believing them, it's no wonder that Doc and others felt his integrity was being questioned. Given that, is there really a question as to why people that know Doc and have done business with him, came to his defense? There was no reason that this "discussion" had to go on as long as it did. Also, Doc informed me that there has NOT been a mix up with the photos, but he said he will take new pics, in natural light, and post them when he is able (computer issues).

One thing to keep in mind is that amels DO have a little dark splotch in their iris. If you get the angle of the photo right, this can become more or less pronounced, and the degree of pupil dilation/constriction can also affect how large that dark spot seems.

Just to clarify the position that seems to me to be appearing here, any snake for sale is to be taken at the face value of what the seller says it is, no questions permissable?
So in this case, there were genuine questions out of curiosity, not to cause mischief, but because the hatchlings looked a bit different and quite special. I personally was excited that they might have had the ultramel gene too, not because I could buy them but because I love to see how different genetic combinations produce our lovely corns.
But in another case maybe, a seller can mislabel hatchlings and no debate is allowed?
I could quote a fairly well-known seller who sold snakes with hets that didn't prove out. Someone who then disappeared from the forums and who still hasn't answered the complaints of people who bought his snakes for breeding projects that were thrown off by his mistakes or deliberate dishonesty.

There's a time and place for everything.
No, I do not think you should receive everything as fact, and if you have doubts, it great to ask and learn.

But to do so in an ad is not the time, nor place.
Also, to explain the entire reasoning as to why the seller may be wrong in the ad's thread is also not very polite.

a question like "are you sure you uploaded the right pictures? because for some reason, on my screen at least, the hatchling's eyes appear to be blue rather than red"- would have been far better than the way people chose to articulate themselves. And it would have been exponentially better to ask in a PM.

That's my personal opinion anyways.