Scale less Corns anyone?

I read this thread yesterday, and I have spent the last 24 hrs thinking about it.....I still find it a bit weird, but I have settled it in my mind, I think. Like it was said, we have messed around with dogs for years. Some of that has been to the detriment of the dogs. and they no longer resemble the original. But that didn't stop me wanting a Bull Terrier, because they were normal when I seen them, they wasn't a new dog. In time this will be just another corn snake, and no one will know anything else, as they will be normal as well. I don't think I will ever want one, but I am not a member of the flat earth society either......Perhaps this is the next stag of evolution in the snake morph world....?

snakewispera snr said:

I read this thread yesterday, and I have spent the last 24 hrs thinking about it.....I still find it a bit weird, but I have settled it in my mind, I think. Like it was said, we have messed around with dogs for years. Some of that has been to the detriment of the dogs. and they no longer resemble the original. But that didn't stop me wanting a Bull Terrier, because they were normal when I seen them, they wasn't a new dog. In time this will be just another corn snake, and no one will know anything else, as they will be normal as well. I don't think I will ever want one, but I am not a member of the flat earth society either......Perhaps this is the next stag of evolution in the snake morph world....?

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That deserves a rep, couldn't have put it better myself...........

And to the OP, thanks for the post... not everyone will love it but that's what makes the world an interesting place....:spinner:

I think this discussion shows quite well how far the whole morph breeding has changed our mind on accepting to breed snakes that are obviously disabled.
To stick to an example from nature, let's use the polar bear. If we breed a black polar bear, it may not be able to stay alive in nature very long. Okay, doesn't matter, because he's in captivity. Thats what we do when doing morph breeding. In the literature, one can find well studied effects about scaleless snakes being disabled. Thats the same as breeding a polar bear with missing arms. Well, he can crawl on his belly using his rear legs and since we feed him in captivity - well, why not breed an armless polar bear?
Some people may think that this is example is BS, but its the same BS that people in this thread keep telling you when they say that scaleless is the same as pigmentless! And forget about these dog comparisons. Do we really want chiwawa dogs that cannot give birth without a surgery or naked dogs that cannot play in the sun and have to wear clothes? I ask you as a mature person, is this desirable?

And for the one that proposes that some people should stick to literature since they don't own these animals and have experience with it. Sorry guy, but I as a scientist propose that you neither have the knowledge, nor the equipment, not the medical and scientific education to judge the problems these animals may have or may not have. As as long as you don't have, I will stick to what reputable scientists write about scaleless reptiles.

As said, why not start breeding eyeless animals? Why do they need a tail?

Menhir said:

As said, why not start breeding eyeless animals? Why do they need a tail?

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As pointed out by mike17l - tailless animals would probably be unable to breed ... so if the gene is recessive you could produce tailless babies, but you'd not be able to continue the line on except with hets. They do seem to need a tail.

Blind tiger snakes manage to live quite happily, and we keep amelanistic snakes which I would bet on having little to no functional eyesight - I don't believe there will be much, if any, difference in a snake having no eyes to having useless amelanistic eyes :shrugs: We're not talking about sight-hunting falcons here, for whom a small defect in sight would make them useless, we're talking about an animal that pretty much just smells the world around it.

Your black, armless polar bear would not survive in the wild. The scaleless, sub-adult, wild caught corn snakes caught in the wild have certainly managed to survive long enough to become sub-adults ... they can't be *that* disadvantaged, can they?

toyah said:

tailless animals would probably be unable to breed ... so if the gene is recessive you could produce tailless babies, but you'd not be able to continue the line on except with hets. They do seem to need a tail.

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Wait a minute, are you telling me that IF they would breed without a tail, it would be ok to breed such animals?

Blind tiger snakes manage to live quite happily

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Yes, and blind people live quite happily as well, so why not put the eyes of our children out because it looks so damn cool?
This way of thinking makes me sick.

which I would bet on having little to no functional eyesight

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Which is, by scientific experiments, a wrong tought. There eyes are way more damageable by UV light than normal eyes. Since UV light in the intense of the sunlight is not given in the viv, these animals are not disabled or feel pain abuot it.

The scaleless, sub-adult, wild caught corn snakes caught in the wild have certainly managed to survive long enough to become sub-adults ... they can't be *that* disadvantaged, can they?

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Oh you mean you won't be able to catch animals with painful deseases and disorders in the wild? You should talk to your local biology scientist. This discussion is not about these animals popping up in the wild. There are many painful and disabling disorders appearing in the wild and some of these animals even reach adulthood. We are talking about a planned breeding of them.

In fact, my question why we can't breed eyeless animals was absolutely rhetoric. I am shoked that there are people that answer this question.

Menhir said:

Wait a minute, are you telling me that IF they would breed without a tail, it would be ok to breed such animals?

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This is such a simplistic question that it's difficult to answer as a yes or no. Taillessness is a common trait in animals - off the top of my head I can think of natural taillessness in cats, dogs, rats, mice, gerbils, and sheep. Do I agree with breeding them? Well, the bobtail gene in dogs doesn't produce any side-effects that impact on the life of the animal, so I have no issues with that. One of the tailless genes in cats seems benign, so I can't really find any welfare issues to complain about there. On the other hand, dominant taillessness in cats, and all known tailless genes in rats have the potential to produce serious side effects, so I disagree with the breeding of those.

I guess if a tailless gene somehow mutated in snakes and did not negatively affect the life of the animal, I would have no real objections to it - obviously, if the gene caused other issues such as spinal problems or breeding issues for example, my opinion would be more negative.

Menhir said:

Yes, and blind people live quite happily as well, so why not put the eyes of our children out because it looks so damn cool?
This way of thinking makes me sick

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Cross-species comparisions do not always produce usable and logical rules or information - they can provide useful starting points for comparisons and learning, but I don't think this example does.

I don't disagree with breeding amelanistic snakes. I DO disagree with breeding amelanistic dogs - the mutation is comparable but the effect on the animal is not. Comparing humans to snakes is a bit of an odd comparison ... there are many things we do in the selective breeding of animals that would be objectionable if applied to humans.

Menhir said:

Which is, by scientific experiments, a wrong tought. There eyes are way more damageable by UV light than normal eyes. Since UV light in the intense of the sunlight is not given in the viv, these animals are not disabled or feel pain abuot it.

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That's quite interesting. If it's only direct UV from the sun that causes problems with amelanistic eyes, how come indoor bred and reared amelanistic rodents, a species which are more active in the dark than the light at the best of times, end up blinded? Once blinded, surely there is no input from the eyes so exposure to UV would be irrelevant? Do you have any links to these scientific experiements on the eyesight of albino snakes? I had a quick look on the JoH but I couldn't find anything relevant, so any references would be much appreciated.

Menhir said:

You should talk to your local biology scientist. This discussion is not about these animals popping up in the wild. There are many painful and disabling disorders appearing in the wild and some of these animals even reach adulthood. We are talking about a planned breeding of them.

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Are we? I was talking and asking questions about the mutation and its effects in order to find out if these animals do have a painful and disabling disorder - learning instead of just judging on little to no real information.

Menhir said:

In fact, my question why we can't breed eyeless animals was absolutely rhetoric. I am shoked that there are people that answer this question.

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I can't answer your question, but I can certainly see the value in debating and sharing opinions (without claiming the other view "makes me sick") to learn and further our own understandings and feelings on different subjects, hypothetical or otherwise.

Man! I haven't been here for months and one of the first threads I read is rather interesting to say the least.

I personally think that snake is awesome looking. Would I personally purchase one? Probably not. Would I like to see and hold one in person? You bet I would.

I will not even pretend to know all the negatives such a genetic mutation may produce, but with all the talk of dog and cat mutations I had to add the horrible cat mutation that produces extremely short legged cats called Munchkins. Yes in my eyes that is a horrible mutation that does affect the way the cats get around, and would definitely affect their being able to survive outside if they accidently escaped. But that is just my opinion.

While I don't know what negatives a scaleless snake may suffer from to say it is probably suffering and not living a quality of life, how are we to know if ANY of our snakes are happy? Did anyone get an answer from any of their snakes on that question?

Menhir, in a roundabout way, summarized what I have been trying to get at all along:

Breeding snakes that are missing certain pigments is way different than breeding snakes that are missing vital parts of their anatomy. Scales, eyes, tail.... where do we draw the line?

Kokopelli said:

I cannot nor am I trying to convince people what's right.

All I can say is this, as a vet Technician I am painfully aware of all the surprises we unleashed when we opened Pandora's box unto canines. Dogs that barely resemble their original line now are sentenced to life that will without a doubt will be mingled with pain from their jaws, legs, hips et cetera. I also know that they are the ones paying the price for -our- wants.

Snakes are even less expressive, whilst a dog can show signs of distress, a snake many times won't- due to their hard coded behaviour not to show signs of weakness else they will fall prey.

I am hoping to make people think, really think, before they act. We are currently messing around in a field which is still widely unexplored and we do not yet know the full implications of our actions- and the snakes are the ones who may suffer from it.

All I ask is that you consider the implications of your actions, I do not nor do I wish to prevent progress- progress is also paved with mistakes, without a doubt. But in this case, it is us who experiment and -they- are the ones who will pay the tally. I think that morality should have a huge part in a breeder's choice.

Also try and realize that we are all different, sure, now it sounds absurd to actively breed eyeless snakes... but there are dwarf snakes nowdays, and a few years back I am sure that a completely white snake also sounded insane.

But let us face facts, we are becoming numb, the extreme slowly becomes the norm and another yet more extreme morph will become the subject of the next debate.

All I ask is, before you breed an animal, try and see how much you are putting on the line, and how big is the risk that the hatchlings won't have to live out a life of agony, which sadly can be (not deliberately or knowingly) prolonged due to the sterility of captivity.

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PERFECT... said with much more common sense and calm that I used .. but yes this is exactly what i was trying to say...

snakes can in no way let us know how they FEEL... goodness saying it doesnt APPEAR as though there are any problems is tantamount to saying.. wehavent got a clue.. dont really care and wil be breeding wild morphs soon purposefully..

IF the first poster had a TRUE interest in science the post as I formely said would not have been so flippant .. but sadly it was..

the whole OO imagine it as a lavender Imagine it as a bloodred was just very fickle..


surely a number of these animals should be studied extensively over a long period of time before ANY decision can be made about their issues/ problems...

even then we know so little about snake behaviour how can we really be sure about the problems.. we simply cant be sure about this.... and planned breeding when we do not know what we are dealing with seems very wrong indeedy

we most certainly are becoming numb to breeding... its al about what weird thing we can breed next,,, im sure that nature wil turn on us... it should do...


Breeders in the main breed for money.. they have to and thats fine as I would be a hypocrite if i said anything against them as i buy from breeders,,,

however where exactly we are heading with al this is anyones guess...

maybe one day we wil bred a scaless eyeless two headed cornsnake... that carries a deadly virus that only kills humans...


ANY BUYERS,,, :smash:

???????????????????????

patm1313 said:

Um, this is probably fake. The pigments for skin are in the scales not the skin itself. Thats proven when you see the white skin between the scales. And plus, no-one wants scale less corns. they would be freaky and uncool 2 handle.

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You haven't seen photos of other unpigmented animals, have you? There is pigment in the skin as well as in the scales, and nothing I'm looking at in those photos of the scaleless corns screams "photoshopped".

And *I* would have a scaleless corn. It would be fantastic for people who are frightened about the slick, hard scaly feel of a normal snake - you could take away one part of the scary while letting them see that the animal itself is not a monster.

Invictus said:

Menhir, in a roundabout way, summarized what I have been trying to get at all along:

Breeding snakes that are missing certain pigments is way different than breeding snakes that are missing vital parts of their anatomy. Scales, eyes, tail.... where do we draw the line?

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How do you know that pigmentation is not also a vital part of the animal's anatomy? Certainly in mice the alterations that cause white spotting patches on the mouse's skin ALSO cause alterations in intestinal function... often leading to nasties like megacolon. Cats with white ears are often deaf because the cilia in the ears that take in sound NEED melanin to work properly.

I would like to know a lot more about these scaleless snakes. How old the one in the photos is (it looks quite young) and whether it can/does behave like a normal scaled corn. Whether it has fragile skin or whether its skin is comparable, say, to human skin for toughness. And if these guys have been proven to be scaleless as a result of a recessive mutation, can we see photos of adult animals or have any further information about them? Do they breed normally too? What's their fertility like?

It's a sort of selective evolution, us taking into our hands that which until recently had been mother natures job.
Dogs have been suggested as a comparison. Look at a wolf. Look at a chihuahua? THAT'S ok but not scale-less snakes aren't? W.T.F.

If that's not a good enough excuse, you ever hear of the Platypus? How about all the other weird in Australia and other ecologically segregated communities? Australia cut off from Pangea millions of years before anything else. Its species had no choice but to share genes with animals nearby without outcrossing (on a large scale, of course).
A mammal that secretes poison, produces milk, lays eggs and has a beak is ok because mother nature produced it, so it's not weird. But a scaleless snake that we produce (which I'm saying lightly because I've heard they've been found occasionally in the wild) is NOT ok simply for that reason?


In summation? I think they're pretty $#*(ing neat. I wish I were lucky enough to have a hand in such a lucrative and exciting project. Thank you for posting, and keep up the good work.

lol see what happens when I get excited about something? I start typing things like "all other weird in Australia".

Hope you catch my drift! XD

SNAKEWISPERA said:

I think its cruel....it might be eating fine but do you know how it feels!!!!!!!!

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Naked.
I don't see the cruel part, it's different but I don't know. I would rather know my facts before I can really say something.
I think it looks cool, and if the snake is just like a normal corn snake, then maybe I'd like to own one.
But the defenition of reptile is an animal with scales.... so this snake is a reptile but not really... me thinks. :shrugs:

Ssthisto said:

And *I* would have a scaleless corn. It would be fantastic for people who are frightened about the slick, hard scaly feel of a normal snake - you could take away one part of the scary while letting them see that the animal itself is not a monster.

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That is the most ridiculous thing I have EVER heard! Ok, so from my understanding of that sentance, you advocate the breeding of scaleless corns for those who are scared of scales?! I cannot understand the thought process behind this. Surley someone who is scared of snakes would be scared of them regardless... I would be more scared of a scaless snake than a snake with scales if I had an irrational fear.

We all know the stigma attached to snakes, I don't think handing someone a bald snake is going to help... Thats almost akin to saying if someone has an irrational fear of body lets genetically modify humans so we don't have any hair whatsoever. A little extremeist yes, but it makes my point perfectly clear.

How do you know what a scaless snake feels like? Is it coarse, Is it dry, is it soft, it is glassy... you tell me. I couldn't possibly imagine what these animals feel like because I have NEVER felt one.

Having read the entire thread, I'm going to have to reserve judgement on these snakes until someone comes forward with some actual information on the health of these animals, and not just speculation. Please, someone post some solid information.

There were medical journal articles posted about scaleless snakes at the beginning of this thread.

Tula_Montage said:

That is the most ridiculous thing I have EVER heard! Ok, so from my understanding of that sentance, you advocate the breeding of scaleless corns for those who are scared of scales?! I cannot understand the thought process behind this. Surley someone who is scared of snakes would be scared of them regardless... I would be more scared of a scaless snake than a snake with scales if I had an irrational fear.

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Ok, perhaps I should have elaborated. I do educational displays on occasion. A scaleless snake would be VERY useful there - not necessarily for dealing with the kids, who are generally interested and excited - but for dealing with the ADULTS. So yes, something that is not the 'norm' in snakes might well be very useful in that respect.

You might well be more scared of a scaleless snake, because your impression is that snakes are supposed to have scales and that a scaleless one is WEIRD. But texture and appearance can make a great deal of difference. I know that I had a couple of ladies last year who waffled for half an hour about whether they could touch Orion, our Mexican Black King - because he looks "slimy". Yes, he's shiny black - to me that looks like glossy leather, but to someone else it might well look slippery and wet. They were surprised to find out he "feels like a handbag". If he hadn't looked slimy, they might have had much less fear of him.

In my experience, people have a picture in their minds of "scary snake". The more things you can subtract from that mental picture, the more likely you are to be able to get someone to look at the individual ANIMAL and not their mental image of what all snakes must be like. A Coral Snow corn doesn't look anything like what they do in the wild, and my Calcite would get snapped up by a hawk very quickly - but he's a good demonstration animal BECAUSE he doesn't look like people's mental impression of "scary snake". I believe that a scaleless snake would also make a good demonstration animal in that respect.

We all know the stigma attached to snakes, I don't think handing someone a bald snake is going to help... Thats almost akin to saying if someone has an irrational fear of body lets genetically modify humans so we don't have any hair whatsoever. A little extremeist yes, but it makes my point perfectly clear.

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But since snakes are not humans and we are domesticating them, selectively breeding them to alter what they look like, what they eat and what they ARE ... the comparison is not accurate. Besides, though Immac works on the human problem... some people might well WANT someone who's genetically hairless or want to BE genetically hairless. Weird yes, wrong no.

How do you know what a scaless snake feels like? Is it coarse, Is it dry, is it soft, it is glassy... you tell me. I couldn't possibly imagine what these animals feel like because I have NEVER felt one.

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There was a description earlier in this very thread of the wild-caught adult scaleless Texas Ratsnakes - "suede-like".

I have to reply to the "naked" comment. That's obscenely presumptuous.
There -are- scientific researches that conclude the scale's function in dehydration prevention and thermal conductivity.
Keeping a snake on a rugged terrain, such as aspen, can also be uncomfortable because basically the protecting layer of their bodies is now non-existent.

It is far easier to assume that they are not suffering because it satisfies your immediate want for a "cool looking snake". Than to say, assume that it is immoral to proceed with the breeding such an animal because you haven't the slightest idea if it is suffering or not.

It is also a deal harder to prove that you breathe oxygen than prove you don't- someone who insists that people don't breathe oxygen will simply state that one cannot see it.
It takes a deal more depth, study and time to prove the existence of something than it's non-existence. And in this instance, it more easily fits with your desires.

I think it's a very unhealthy approach, to block all options that don't fit with your desires, to be intentionally narrow minded when it comes to think that may shadow your wants.

I think this is unfair towards the animal, it is unfair to make such choices without testing everything that there is to test- because you're not going to be the one who suffers if you're wrong.

If you wish to experiment, by all means, do so on yourself. It's different isn't it? when it is you who suffers for your experiments?

Ssthisto said:

Ok, perhaps I should have elaborated. I do educational displays on occasion. A scaleless snake would be VERY useful there - not necessarily for dealing with the kids, who are generally interested and excited - but for dealing with the ADULTS. So yes, something that is not the 'norm' in snakes might well be very useful in that respect.

You might well be more scared of a scaleless snake, because your impression is that snakes are supposed to have scales and that a scaleless one is WEIRD. But texture and appearance can make a great deal of difference. I know that I had a couple of ladies last year who waffled for half an hour about whether they could touch Orion, our Mexican Black King - because he looks "slimy". Yes, he's shiny black - to me that looks like glossy leather, but to someone else it might well look slippery and wet. They were surprised to find out he "feels like a handbag". If he hadn't looked slimy, they might have had much less fear of him.

In my experience, people have a picture in their minds of "scary snake". The more things you can subtract from that mental picture, the more likely you are to be able to get someone to look at the individual ANIMAL and not their mental image of what all snakes must be like. A Coral Snow corn doesn't look anything like what they do in the wild, and my Calcite would get snapped up by a hawk very quickly - but he's a good demonstration animal BECAUSE he doesn't look like people's mental impression of "scary snake". I believe that a scaleless snake would also make a good demonstration animal in that respect.


But since snakes are not humans and we are domesticating them, selectively breeding them to alter what they look like, what they eat and what they ARE ... the comparison is not accurate. Besides, though Immac works on the human problem... some people might well WANT someone who's genetically hairless or want to BE genetically hairless. Weird yes, wrong no.


There was a description earlier in this very thread of the wild-caught adult scaleless Texas Ratsnakes - "suede-like".

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Thank you for elaborating, I understand your point better now however I still think it's grasping at straws. It's not a good enough reason to advocate the intentional breeding of scaleless snakes IMO.

Perhaps a better analogy would be to say: Someone is scared of hairy tarantulas. Lets remove ALL a tarantulas hair so it is completely bald. How would a bald spider fare? Pretty crap methinks, as a spiders whole world is based on vibration and sensing their environment through the use of their millions of little hairs. Again an extremeist point, but this is an extremeist road that has been taken in regards to breeding corn snakes in captivity. I don't think I can recognise this scaless snake as the corn snakes I know and love.. It's crossed the line and is quite simply too far gone. That is of course, just my opinion which I appreciate many many people do not agree with.

Thats ok because, "without order nothing can exist, withoug chaos nothing can evolve"....

BT41042 said:

To be honest - I figured a few people would give me flake but dead gum...To each their own...Now I remember why I lurk and don't post...LOL...Thanks for all the opinions and good luck to everybody with their projects...
BT

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Yeah, if the snake is healthy and doesn't seem to have any associated pain/problems, its great! Heck, people used to say it was evil to breed albinos....and no almost everyone ones one.....lol. People complaining now will likely want to own one in 5-10 years if they actually stay in the hobby.....lol.