"AKC" type registry for reptiles?

Well, depends on your tastes. Have you been to the AKC's site? Collage of dogs, etc. I thought compared to most sites out there, it was a nicely done site. It doesn't look corporate, but imo should not have to.

It's not a black and white issue and I admit most of it is taste, but on a scale from "MY WBE PAGGE" to "Microsoft.com", I'd call it 75-80 professional.

Hurley said:

No one will ever get this to fly if they are trying to make money at it...not in the corn world.

Click to expand...

I agree 1000% on this point. I think if it's going to succeed in the corn world, it will have to be done by someone who is willing to put in the effort, from their own desire to see it get done, in order to get it rolling. If it happens to pay itself back later, that would be a nice bonus.

The other problem I have with the current design is that they want $500 to recognize any new morph. IMO that is outrageous. Especially with genetic color/pattern variations. It either is or is not, regardless of whether or not they "recognize" it. Seems to me like an effort to cash in on someone else's discoveries. Maybe that's worthwhile in species where new stuff sells for $50,000 each, but in corns I won't even consider such a thing. That alone is enough for me to say I'll never be involved in that particular effort.

My only interest is in establishing a database, a very large family tree. I could see having breed standards for Okeetees, Miamis, Candycanes, Sunglows, and Reverse Okeetees but that's an entirely different and independent issue.

@Hurley - oh, I didn't compare them to the others.
But - I'm quite shure that the other organisations where already well known before the internet-thing came on. That means, if you know Gibson Guitars, it doesn't matter if they have 10 flying guitars on their site and all that in pink... people know the guitar and they will ignore that "stuff".
Different thing here, they are unknown and just have to come to peoples minds, getting peoples trust and so on.

It may be personal taste, but one main don't in "professional" webdesign is - black background is for pu**ys. :nyah:
(just kidding...)

@Menhir

LOL! But, but... I won't argue web design do's and don'ts with ya. :nyah: Not my specialty. For having a black background, it looks fairly professional...how's that? Hehehe We split the difference from black and white on our page. Can we be quasi-professional, then?

Sum up: Point acknowledged and taken.

No no. I dont like how that website it set up at all.

As was touched upon, those prices are just unacceptable.

$25 for a clutch, plus $1 per hatchling? Too much. What's that come out to, $40 per clutch?

So say you hatch out 500 babies, and say there's an average of 12 eggs per clutch. That comes out to 42 clutches, rounded up. So, to register the clutches and the hatchlings it'd be $1550? Pfft.

Those prices need to come WAY down before this would even get off the ground. The prices need to cover the cost of running the website and that's about it. Maybe some for time consideration, but nothing overboard.

I think eventually you'd like to be able to assign "serial numbers" to breeders and let them upload their own things to the database and have everything sorted by phenotype and or breeder name/serial number.

I think letting people vote on who has the best 'line' would also be somewhat beneficial.

I agreee that it can't cost too much money since most corns seem to sell for well under $50 each, and most probably at half or less of that. I would think that a breeder would only have to register a whole clutch, like the CFA (cats) has you send in to register a litter. Then the new owner either registers his individual, or not, as he desires. So the breeder wouldn't have to pay for each individual registration. I also think it would only work if there were quantity discounts available for registering large numbers of founder stock. As you said, without large numbers and some time elapsed, the effort will mean very little. But I am guessing that she will have to be flexible and let her plan evolve, if it is to work. I asked her to check in on the discussion once there has been enough time to see what points are being made. Then she can add her viewpoint on the whole thing too.

I am not familiar with the plans of Nancy Swamp and hope she comes to let us know what she is doing and how far along she is.

I have a question (it may have already been covered and if so, I apologize). How would those of us who are small hobby breeders with snakes from many different sources go about being able to register our "base" stock? I have quite a few snakes that are from "big" breeders. Those would be fairly easy to deal with, but what about the snakes I have from the smaller breeders and the snakes that I have that are "genetically" not proven, yet? Would they be able to be registered only if they fit the "standards?" I realize that the pedigrees have to start somewhere. I guess what I am concerned about is what if we do not know what the parents were? Is that going to keep us from being able to "register" our animals? Am I only going to be able to register the snakes I got from say Serpenco or South Mountain Reptiles?

If I were running it, I would start at present day, although would record previous generations if known. If it looks like (for example) an alb. okeetee, then it IS an albino okeetee, for as long as the stud book stays open. I would try to ascertain that it is pure corn (or creamsicle, or whatever) as much as possible, but am not sure by what methods. Probably just a statement by the owner. Can't afford DNA tests, lol! After a few generations of only breediing registered animals to each other, presumably the "best" to the "best" whenever possible, the looks would become more estabished and predictable.

But I don't plan to take on this project, so am not sure exactly how it will be decided.

I think the only way that this is going to take off is if the big guys are willing to partake in this.

But then like I said, why would they? It's just another cost to them, and really, why take a loss on something like this? They've got the reputation and namesake already, so no real point.

For most of the smaller guys, at least from what I've heard---do it just as a hobby and really arent in the green on their bottom line---so I just dont know how this is going to work.

I think we need a lot more brainstorming on exactly what and how we want this to be done. No sense in rushing it.

Thank you Kathy! To be honest, I do think that the "big" breeders are going to have to get involved. Because they are more experienced, they would be better able to determine what each morph should look like. I think it will be MUCH easier, however, if a hobbyist breeder takes on the bulk of the responsibility because he/she would have more time to devote to the project.

I personally would volunteer, but I would not know where to begin. Kathy, if you or someone else would be willing to help me (or point me in the right direction, then I would be more than happy to give it a shot.

CornCrazy said:

Thank you Kathy! To be honest, I do think that the "big" breeders are going to have to get involved. Because they are more experienced, they would be better able to determine what each morph should look like. I think it will be MUCH easier, however, if a hobbyist breeder takes on the bulk of the responsibility because he/she would have more time to devote to the project.

I personally would volunteer, but I would not know where to begin. Kathy, if you or someone else would be willing to help me (or point me in the right direction, then I would be more than happy to give it a shot.

Click to expand...

I'd also be more than happy to help out.

So would it work to have a set fee for all of the breeders who want to participate regardless of how many snakes they have to register? There could even be price ranges. Say a set price for 1-25 corns, 26-50, 51-100, 101-200, etc. Of course, those breakdowns are just examples. I think something like that would make it easier for people with LOTS of animals to be able to participate without it putting them into bankruptcy.

The problem with any breeder that has a decent number of adults, are the hatchlings. To expect a big breeder to essentially waste hours taking pictures of thousands of hatchlings---well, that's just not going to happen.

We've gotta come up with something dealing with breeders and hatchlings.

OK, I have to admit that I didn't even look at that other site, so I'm only going by what is posted in this thread. But I have been in this type of discussion MANY times before.

Cost is going to be an issue, of course, but in reality the biggest issue will be time and effort. Heck when all of my babies are hatching out, I am just a hair's breadth from a nervous breakdown from July thru September! Even if I would only consider registering half of the babies I produce each year, does anyone really think I would have the resources to make up 3,000 documents for each animal?

Sorry, but this is, so far, the brick wall that every plan like this I have heard has hit so far. Quite frankly, if you are producing enough animals to be a major influence in the success or failure of a project like this, you do not have the resources available to participate to insure it's success.

Even if someone offered to come to my place, photograph and document each and every baby, I wouldn't have the time to even be able to provide them with basic info for them to be able to do that job.

And I will be quite honest about another aspect of it. I may just not WANT someone to know about all of the genetics of my projects so they can be duplicated with ease by someone else. Some are based on possibly new genetic strains that I haven't even documented themselves yet. The day is rapidly approaching when the "formula" for what makes a cultivar will be every bit as protected as a trade secret, just as the formula for things like Coca Cola and other products are. I suspect that this is a completely different environment then what those other registries have been founded under.

Hate sounding like a wet blanket, but I have been approached with this idea more times then I can remember. Maybe I am being selfish about it, but the first thought that pops into my mind is the mindbending workload that such a thing would place me under to be able to take part in it. I already take between 1,000 and 2,000 photos during hatching season just of clutches. I can just imagine taking individual photos and cataloging them as well, along with pertinent documentation. Heck, most of those clutch photos I have taken I have long forgotten what the parentage of them even is! The workload at that time is immense! So I just take photos and download them to my harddrive every night, to deal with them later on. Like January or so....

See, and that's been my point during this whole thread.

If this were to happen, it would pretty much need to be just smaller breeders, because people like Rich, Don and Kathy have way too many snakes, and hatchlings, to even try to document that.

Well, a couple thoughts on Rich's situation. (Rich, substitute your/you whereever it fits. )

This is not said in any kind of negative tone whatsoever -- I would be surprised if Rich ever joined a project like this ever for reasons he has stated...the sheer amount of effort involved on his part.

And true, this talk comes up at least once a year...

Anyway, things to hash over:

Possibility 1 - Make a general rule that any snake coming from Serpenco is registerable by the new owner as a "XXX" phenotype (whatever is known). List parents as "Serpenco Stock" and let the lineage continue in the register from there. It won't completely eliminate the holes that will be left, but at least give an explanation for why the hole is there.

Possibility 2 - Make it so that a breeder can register a clutch and that clutch is given an ID number. No pedigrees to keep track of, no paper to keep on file...just a clutch ID number. The Clutch ID Number goes with the hatchling and the new owner can register the snake with the registry. The registry will then fill in the parent's ID numbers (assuming the breeder registered the breeders) or fill in, again, "Serpenco Stock". Phenotypes can be submitted if known or listed as "Unknown" or "Unlisted". As to getting a clutch ID number...just submit number of eggs, ID of parents (CSR number or Serpenco Number or whatever), and a number of each phenotype (helpful, but optional). A set of numbers is assigned for that clutch and if the new owners choose to register, they'll get their ID number and the records go on.

Possibility 3 - Make the registration info of genotype and parent's genotypes optional...breeder can list genotype as Unknown/Unlisted if they so choose to protect the Colonel's Secret Recipe. Same with phenotypes. On the list, it can be listed as "Anery type unknown" "Hypo type unknown". For those animals that we don't know what they are...or don't want to say...they are "unknown". This isn't any worse than just having "Serpenco Stock" listed on the pedigree. I don't see a problem with it.


What I do like about a registry is it gives each individual a permanent ID number. With that number, you can trace back through the lines (eventually) as far back as we have records...but the benefit is if we can get enough people involved, you can trace back through multiple breeders.


As to getting it started, if we can just get people to submit info on their breeders for now with whatever info they have or are willing to give, we can get the train started. We won't have a lot of info on them at first, but soon the pedigrees will grow.


On the subject of pictures. I would say for this first big effort, make ID pics requested, but optional...get the breeders input into the system with at the minimum an ID number and hopefully a phenotype. Then later, start with individual registrations from then out needing one clear dorsal shot (perhaps a belly shot for bloodreds/motleys/stripes). The big breeders should not have to do this except for possibly new snakes entering their collection here and there. The burden would be on the buyer to submit the papers to make their pet registered, the breeder need only register the clutch with a little info and get a clutch ID number to pass on.

Good idea, Hurley.

It'd be good if we could have an automated system online---like something off the main page where you could register a clutch with a group ID number. You would click on register a clutch and it would automatically assign your clutch a number--and then you'd enter the specifics of that clutch.

Same thing goes with single neonate additions. Same automated system, just different numbers, obviously. This could let you add in a clutch ID number which would have all of the previous information that would transfer over. If you didnt have a clutch number, you could just enter in the phenotype and known hets, breeder name, hatch date, etc.

{Wet blanket mode ON}

But without photos of the individual animal, you have no protection at all against fraud. Counterfeit documentation would be simple to make up unless you do something special with the type of paper or special imprinting seal. Anything that can be just printed on regular paper can be scanned in and counterfeited in a heartbeat.

Plus what about all of the followup work? How many phone calls and emails would I want to have to handle asking me to check on the registry of such and such animal. Which, quite frankly, I would have NO way to verify. Do I charge people for complying with their request?

To give you an example, years ago when I lived in Maryland, I bred Eastern Indigo Snakes. I gave one of the babies I hatched out to my little brother which he kept for a while, then decided to give to his biology teacher. Anyway a few years after this all took place, this biology teacher came up to me at one of the Mid Atlantic Shows and asked me if I would mind giving him a documenting letter stating that the indigo snake came from me. I refused. I had no way of determining that the animal he had was actually the animal I gave to my brother. So how could I ethically have done that for him?

If someone can come up with a magical formula for this to work, my hat is off to you. But if it is going to add substantially to my workload, with no real return that I can see (come on, do you REALLY think this will allow us to raise prices on these guys?), I am afraid I will have to decline. I am trying to figure out ways to REDUCE my workload, not INCREASE it! And from every angle I have looked at this problem, it appears to be unavoidable that it will not only cost me a substantial amount of money, but it will also involve a substantial amount of time and effort as well. And for what?

What exactly would be the GOAL of something like this? It has to gain something for all involved (or MOST people, anyway) or all won't get involved with it. Particularly if it does not gain something for the people who would have to put the most time, effort, and expense INTO it.

{Wet blanket mode OFF}

Joejr14 said:

Good idea, Hurley.

It'd be good if we could have an automated system online---like something off the main page where you could register a clutch with a group ID number. You would click on register a clutch and it would automatically assign your clutch a number--and then you'd enter the specifics of that clutch.

Same thing goes with single neonate additions. Same automated system, just different numbers, obviously. This could let you add in a clutch ID number which would have all of the previous information that would transfer over. If you didnt have a clutch number, you could just enter in the phenotype and known hets, breeder name, hatch date, etc.

Click to expand...

Uh, I typically have between 300 and 450 clutches per year...... All of them hatching out around the same time. Most people would not believe the stress levels around here at that time. Oh yeah, the Daytona Beach Expo is right in the middle of it. Sure, I can see people standing in front of my tables miffed because I don't have a certificate for each animal there. :headbang:

Rich, I fully understand and accept your position at face value. Like I said, with no negative feelings or tone implied, I never expect you to participate. What I was just trying to say is that this can happen and still be useful to others without requiring you to participate.

What is the goal? To eventually have an accessible historical record for tracing back lines and viewing the information available. The more people that get involved, the more useful and complete it will be.



As to the fraud thing...I'm not trying to certify het-for-pied ball pythons. We're talking corn snakes and we're talking about getting info into a data base that can be accessed, for now. No printed pedigrees on an individual animal without a ID photo, but that is for the buyer to submit, not the breeder. Getting the breeder snakes into the data base for content of future pedigrees does not require a photo (but a photo is encouraged if possible). Getting the breeder info into the data base for future pedigrees/future hatchlings/future clutches should be the initial goal (for those that want to participate). The only way to ensure ID is to go to requiring a permanent tattoo or microchip implantation or DNA testing, and I can't see that happening in the near future.

This is a tool, to be used by those enthusiastic to the hobby and record-keeping, and will be used by the same. Dishonest people happen and fraud will occur...it happens in AKC, in the AQHA, everywhere. My hope is that most of them have moved on to ball pythons and boas where there's more money in the scamming and they'll leave our little registry alone. We can only do so much and the information from it is only worth so much...that value is different amongst different people. This project probably has zero value to you, Rich, and if that's the case, there's no one requiring you to participate. That's simple enough. To some of us, it does have value and we'll try to make it as easy to use and informative and useful as we can.

I would think eventually this would take a load off of a lot of shoulders. If someone can access their corn's history, perhaps that would be fewer calls 7 years later asking what the snake was out of. Rather than trying to explain it all out and have them forget and call you the next day, it would be nice to just hand them a copy of the parent's pedigree or a clutch number and have them contact the CSR.

If they lose the info, lose the clutch number, then it's tough luck. The animal is a "grade" animal. A corn, just not registered. No less value implied, just no history.