Feeding live to F/T babies ??

Hahaha.
That is why I like you, Lenny.

Originally Posted by Sai_Keths

I understand All. Facts though can be stated nicely and simply such as the faux post I posted. All I am saying is that Alpine probably wanted the opinions of a few people, backed up by facts, not this all out war.

If you see, I posted the facts very nicely, and in fact, also posted a picture along with it. But, the OP was too busy arguing about how they are right and everyone else is wrong to even acknowledge my post.

Also, I believe that having a meltdown and cursing out a member of the forums is grounds for some form of punishment, though I am not 100% positive. Oh, here it is, I am 100% positive...

Originally Posted by Nanci

I've noticed lately that people here are getting more...cantankerous. It's resulting in a lot of reported posts, reported PMs, and interactions that catch my eye that I try to stop before they get out of hand.

On the one hand, our site rules (stickied in the New Members section as well as other places) state:

7) CROSSING THE LINE - Members who let disagreements get out of hand, post inflammatory responses (personal attacks), or use foul language will receive a 3-Day ban from the forum. This is a time to cool down, collect your thoughts, and come back and become a valuable contributor to the community. If it happens again, you will receive a permanent ban. It may seem harsh, but rules have to be in place to keep the forum a positive place free of animosity amongst its members.

And more recently an infraction system was implemented:

-Abusive towards other members (1 pt.)-Inappropriate advertising (1 pt.)
-Profanity (2 pts.)
-Antagonism toward moderators (4 pts.)
-Racist/Prejudicial remarks (4 pts.)
-Actual or implied threats (5 pts.)

Cumulative penalties:

10 pts.: Immediate 3-day ban
20 pts.: 1-month ban
30 pts.: Permanent ban
30 pts. (Spamming): Immediate permanent ban

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But the site rules also state:

6) DON’T BE AFRAID TO SPEAK YOUR MIND – This forum is made up of a diverse group of people with very different viewpoints. We all disagree at times, but that doesn’t stop us from saying what we believe. If someone says something that you don’t care for, don’t let it get under your skin. Try to keep a cool head and don’t let things bother you too much.
Also, keep an eye out for smilies and sarcasm. It can be easy to misinterpret someone's words online. Occasionally, members like to give one another a good-natured ribbing. Try to keep and open mind and not take it as a personal attack. More often than not, things are said in jest and not in a derogatory manner.

*******************************

I'd like us to collectively try to strike a balance here of members, new and old, not being afraid to ask a question or bring a subject up for discussion because they are afraid of being attacked.

I'd like us, as a site, to try to voice our differing opinions as just that, without bringing the other person's intelligence or snake husbandry skills or anything else into it.

I'd like us all to be a little more tactful when we don't agree.

I'd also like new members to pay particular attention to this suggestion:

2) SEARCHING FOR ANSWERS – There is a wonderful search function that is extremely useful for finding answers to 99.9% of your questions! We encourage you to search for old threads and the FAQs to get answers. There is an excellent tutorial for learning how to effectively search these forums for information. Find it here: Click Here for the Search Tutorial
If, after you’ve searched, you *still* can’t find answers, feel free to create a new thread in the appropriate sub-forum looking for advice/opinions. The members of this forum are happy to give you any advice they can; that's what we're here for!

I'm sure one thing we can all agree on is that there will never be a general concensus on cohabitation or live feeding. New members- if you choose to go against the grain, please do not be offended when others who have been here long enough to see the damage these two practices _may_ cause speak up and warn you not to do it. Yes, you _will_ be able to scour the forum and find support, but in general, both topics have been beaten to death and nothing has changed. Using the search function, finding previous discussions, and making your own informed decision rather than starting yet another cohabbing, live-feeding thread will go a long way in reducing friction here.

Thank you.

Oh, OP, there is a tutorial on how to use the search bar too... I suggest searching next time, as was suggested multiple times. You will find the answers to many of your questions there.

Originally Posted by alpine

The whole reason I join forums is to expand my knowledge of a subject. To do this, I search threads or post my own if I have questions that aren't answered.

This makes it seem as though you do know how to use the search function, and therefore you knew that the general outcome of "I feed live, and you all are stupid" is what has happened in this thread.

Originally Posted by alpine

For some reason I knew I'd start a flame war for this topic. . I feed my snake live because I feel it is better for her.

See above comment.

Originally Posted by alpine

Many posts have been made about how there's no benefits to it, but would you prefer it if I were to serve you a steak freshly prepped this morning or one that's been sitting in my freezer for 6 months and in someone elses freezer for who knows how long. I'd go with the fresh food if it were up to me.

I responded to this by quoting you and correcting your analogy. Here is a link: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...6&postcount=25

Originally Posted by alpine

I know of the risks, trust me, I know, but I'm not an idiot and I've watched every mouse my snake has killed up to the point where it's dead. Never had a problem.

Follow above link, and you will see two problems that I have with live feeding. 1, my snake got hurt and has a permanent scar on her neck below the jawline. 2, My snake received a bite right near her eye, you can see the little brown dot of a scab on her head. This happened with me in the room monitoring the feeding, before I had time to react. I am lucky the mouse did not puncture her skull.

I have a feeling though that you are still going to ignore my post, but I decided to reiterate it here for future members who may read through the whole thing and not realize that we are not a bunch of "Big Meanies" that just pick on the little guy.

On that note, when I first got here I started a thread about hybrids and got griped at by some people. And, guess what. I consider those people my friends now. Stick around and find some common ground with some of us. As much as David gets on my nerves, a lot, I still respect a bit of what he says about African Fat Tails, and Ball Pythons, and Heralds Snakes. I do not have experience with them and he does. That is what this forum is for to learn new things, and throughout all of the forums that I have been a part of, this one is one of the only 2 that the people, no matter their differences, can get over them and get along. It is more like a family here than most other places I have been.

In fact, it is the only animal forum that I have been a part of that I have actually felt comfortable enough to call the majority active of members my friends.

^^^ This is what I was saying...

Stick around and you will make friends.

But we all have something against endangering your snakes... and some of us have experience to back this up.

A lot of people think that giving the mouse a painless death is humane, but look, you're still killing it! Ending a life for the purpose of feeding our pet snakes, or supporting a industry that does this, can also be called inhumane.
Even if you're able to put mice to sleep, and watch them die peacefully, I don't think they really wanted to die that day. Pulling a ton of mice out of a CO2 chamber who "died painlessly" isn't "humane", its genocide.

So please stop using the "humane" argument, I am really tired of it. Feeding live is fine if the person is willing to accept the minor risk. This is the rational argument against it.

I've been switching between live and prekilled. My snakes gained a lot of weight, so last feeding I gave him a live hopper so he'd get a little exercise constricting it. But when I have an adult mouse with a bad temper, I'll definitely prekill it cause I can sense that its a dicey situation.

And I can honestly say the suffering of the mouse takes zero consideration. People who feed mice to their snakes and claim to care for the mice are hypocrites IMHO. Are you going to try and outlaw mouse traps next, because they suffer a painful death being killed that way?
Probably not worth arguing over this, it'll end up being a circular argument. But we're supposed to speak our minds here, after all.

As my snake gets older, I will ultimately stick with prekilled, and that's because I can sense the superior intelligence of a rodent, and the danger when you put it in a gladiator match vs. your snake is inherent.

Originally Posted by starsevol

He got opinions.
He got facts.
He then made it clear that he prefers to risk the safety of his snake.

Perhaps, just perhaps, there is a sort of disturbing "thrill" there, watching one animal kill another that is worth more than the safety of his snake.

Hey star, we meet again

You are absolutely correct. There is a tiny impetus that makes some of us prefer live, because we actually do enjoy watching a predator in action. Yes, it is twisted, but it is slightly more satisfying to some, to watch the snake seek out and subdue his own prey, rather than feeding him a dead one, thereby "fooling" our own pet.

I think you understand why we do it. Yep, we're just disturbed.

And let me add, it's probably the "disturbed" types, who one day suddenly watched a hamster kill their boa, who are the biggest proponents AGAINST live feeding.

Originally Posted by 7legion77

A lot of people think that giving the mouse a painless death is humane, but look, you're still killing it! Ending a life for the purpose of feeding our pet snakes, or supporting a industry that does this, can also be called inhumane.
Even if you're able to put mice to sleep, and watch them die peacefully, I don't think they really wanted to die that day. Pulling a ton of mice out of a CO2 chamber who "died painlessly" isn't "humane", its genocide.

So please stop using the "humane" argument, I am really tired of it. Feeding live is fine if the person is willing to accept the minor risk. This is the rational argument against it.

I've been switching between live and prekilled. My snakes gained a lot of weight, so last feeding I gave him a live hopper so he'd get a little exercise constricting it. But when I have an adult mouse with a bad temper, I'll definitely prekill it cause I can sense that its a dicey situation.

And I can honestly say the suffering of the mouse takes zero consideration. People who feed mice to their snakes and claim to care for the mice are hypocrites IMHO. Are you going to try and outlaw mouse traps next, because they suffer a painful death being killed that way?
Probably not worth arguing over this, it'll end up being a circular argument. But we're supposed to speak our minds here, after all.

As my snake gets older, I will ultimately stick with prekilled, and that's because I can sense the superior intelligence of a rodent, and the danger when you put it in a gladiator match vs. your snake is inherent.

I disagree. The suffering of the mouse should not be zero consideration. We have the power to make them suffer, or make them pass on without pain or even knowing anything happened to them.
It is our job to be as kind to the lesser beings as we can be. Yes, they die to feed our snakes. But they should be treated with respect.
If you don't want to go to your death terrified and in pain, then you should not inflict it on other creatures. Decent people don't, anyway.

Originally Posted by 7legion77

A lot of people think that giving the mouse a painless death is humane, but look, you're still killing it! Ending a life for the purpose of feeding our pet snakes, or supporting a industry that does this, can also be called inhumane.
Even if you're able to put mice to sleep, and watch them die peacefully, I don't think they really wanted to die that day. Pulling a ton of mice out of a CO2 chamber who "died painlessly" isn't "humane", its genocide.

So please stop using the "humane" argument, I am really tired of it. Feeding live is fine if the person is willing to accept the minor risk. This is the rational argument against it.

I've been switching between live and prekilled. My snakes gained a lot of weight, so last feeding I gave him a live hopper so he'd get a little exercise constricting it. But when I have an adult mouse with a bad temper, I'll definitely prekill it cause I can sense that its a dicey situation.

And I can honestly say the suffering of the mouse takes zero consideration. People who feed mice to their snakes and claim to care for the mice are hypocrites IMHO. Are you going to try and outlaw mouse traps next, because they suffer a painful death being killed that way?
Probably not worth arguing over this, it'll end up being a circular argument. But we're supposed to speak our minds here, after all.

As my snake gets older, I will ultimately stick with prekilled, and that's because I can sense the superior intelligence of a rodent, and the danger when you put it in a gladiator match vs. your snake is inherent.

hu·mane
   /hyuˈmeɪn or, often, yu-/ Show Spelled[hyoo-meyn or, often, yoo-] Show IPA
adjective
1.
characterized by tenderness, compassion, and sympathy for people and animals, especially for the suffering or distressed: humane treatment of horses.
2.
of or pertaining to humanistic studies.
Origin:
orig. stress variant of human, restricted to above senses from 18th century; compare germane, german

Related forms
hu·mane·ly, adverb
hu·mane·ness, noun
o·ver·hu·mane, adjective
un·hu·mane, adjective
un·hu·mane·ly, adverb

People who try to relieve as much stress on the animal that they are killing for their snake to eat, are being humane.

gen·o·cide
   /ˈdʒɛnəˌsaɪd/ Show Spelled[jen-uh-sahyd] Show IPA
noun
the deliberate and systematic extermination of a national, racial, political, or cultural group.
Origin:
1940–45; < Greek géno ( s ) race + -cide

Related forms
gen·o·cid·al, adjective
Genocide is definitely the wrong term to use.

This is probably the term you were looking for,

ro·den·ti·cide
noun \rō-ˈden-tə-ˌsīd\
Definition of RODENTICIDE
: an agent that kills, repels, or controls rodents

By that definition, yes, we use rodenticide. But, by the first definition that I put up, most people are using Humane Rodenticide
Dictionary's are fun.

Also, you can get your snake some excersise by wiggling the mouse while he has it in his mouth. Every time I do this mine constricts and holds on for dear life... Oh, and if your snake has gained too much weight, maybe you are feeding it too much food. <Just a thought...

Originally Posted by 7legion77

Hey star, we meet again

You are absolutely correct. There is a tiny impetus that makes some of us prefer live, because we actually do enjoy watching a predator in action. Yes, it is twisted, but it is slightly more satisfying to some, to watch the snake seek out and subdue his own prey, rather than feeding him a dead one, thereby "fooling" our own pet.

I think you understand why we do it. Yep, we're just disturbed.

Yes I understand it. It is a form of mental illness. You lack empathy and get a psychosexual response from watching one animal kill another. People like that need to seek professional help.

Originally Posted by 7legion77

A lot of people think that giving the mouse a painless death is humane, but look, you're still killing it!

Because we keep predators/carnivores as pets, that means that *something* must die for them to live. We keep them as a pet, which means we are morally obligated to provide sufficient care. This means feeding them.

So here we now have a mouse. It is alive. It is aware. It can feel pleasure, pain, fear, anger. It is going to die to feed a snake.

Here's the turning point: it can now either die in terror and agony and shock, or it can fall asleep and die without pain or fear.

If the snake will take F/T, the mouse should be given the kindness of a peaceful death. To claim that a peaceful death is 'inhumane' because we're still killing it is ludicrous. Do you also think that humane euthanasia for dogs and cats is actually "inhumane" because we're still killing them in the end?

Would you rather the cat getting its entire face eaten away by cancer die a 'natural' death? Or the puppy that got its skull crunched in by a larger dog biting him? Or the kitten that was so septic that its blood was the color of a strawberry milkshake?

I actively deal with death every single day I'm at work. I have euthanised quite a few pets as part of my job, including 6 week old kittens with pneumonia.

It is without doubt the greatest, last gift of my field and I am fiercely jealous that a human with a terminal illness that is in unmanageable agony is not allowed the option for it. And if I would want it for *myself*... how inhumane of me to deny it to the mouse.