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Health Issues/Feeding Problems Anything related to general or specific health problems. Issues having to do with feeding problems or tips.

What supplements, if any, do you think are necessary for your corn snakes?
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Old 04-27-2003, 01:04 PM   #1
QuickSilver
What supplements, if any, do you think are necessary for your corn snakes?

The Probiotics already have my attention as, although I think the risk is minimal, reptiles might transmit salmonella (so might your morning egg ), but are other supplements like calcium/vit D necessary? Anything else?
 
Old 04-27-2003, 02:14 PM   #2
Wa$ted
dunno bout the others

but i dont quite understand,,,what kind of supplements?
 
Old 04-27-2003, 03:45 PM   #3
louis
wasted, many lizards (including leopards and beardeds) need calicium and viatimin D supplements in their food to be able to grow healthy and avoid health problems. So think what he was asking is that should you dust your pinkies with supplements before feeding them. Honestly, I dont really know, but from the way I see it, I dont see how it could hurt. But the snake might be able to digest that type of supplement or something (guessing).
 
Old 04-27-2003, 04:15 PM   #4
Wa$ted
oh i see

i thought so but i had my doubts,,well they dont need vitamins and calcium sprays to grow up but it is recommended for younger snakes,,,right guys?
 
Old 04-27-2003, 04:50 PM   #5
CowBoyWay
Thumbs up Pinky mice, natures perfect food...not without a little help..

Calcium D3 & vitamin supplements help enhance metabolism and the utilization of nutritents as well as supplying essential amino acids to build protein

Reptiles use vitamin D3 as a catalyst that bonds to calcium and allows it to be assimilated.

In other words, no matter how much calcium you add to your animals diet,
it cannot be processed and used without the proper amount of D3 in the reptiles system (without binding up / inhibiting, the absorption of other necessary nutritents.").

From USENET july of 96 .
The author is RICHARD SCHROEDER of the following....

"Pinky mice are low in calcium, as well as the calcium/ phosphorus ratio
favoring too much phosphorus,
however
as mice grow into fuzzies and
jumpers the calcium/phosphorus ratio improves and their calcium content
increases as they produce more calcified bone.

Thus it is important that growing snakes that are building bone and eating pinky and young fuzzy mice be supplemented with calcium by dusting the pinky/fuzzy mice with a good vitamin and mineral supplement.
This helps insure stronger, healthier growth during this very critical growing phase in their life.

Secondly, fat is used for energy not growing muscle and organ proteins,
and generally compared to older mice, pinky mice are not that high in
total fat, since they have not had time to develop fat stores, and pinky
feeder mice are usually not around long enough to develop much fat
storage...Pinky mice are however a good source of protein which is needed for a reptiles growth and develop.

The vitamin supplements help enhance metabolism and utilization of the nutritents as well as supplying essential amino acids to build protein...

All animals need calcium and phosphorus to build and maintain healthy bones.
Strong bones are formed from supplying enough calcium to allow for good calcification of the bone matrix.

There are several ways to get calcium into the blood and thus the bone.

The first is with having adequate vitamin D3 around which is used by the body as a carrier to bind with the calcium and bring it out of the intestine into the body.

In the absences of sunlight,
calcium can also be absorbed from the intestines and get into the blood and thus the bone if the
calcium/ phosphorus ratio is correct in the 1.4 parts to 1 part to the 2 to 1 part range.

Thus supplying dicalcium phosphate powder in the food not only provides these minerals, but it also helps insure that the calcium will be absorbed out of the intestines by the body.

A third way calcium can get into the body is by suppling mega doses of calcium alone. With the concentration of calcium being higher outside the intestine then inside the blood, calcium is then forced into the blood.
This is not a good way to supply calcium.
The reason being that high levels of calcium in the intestine will bind and inhibit the absorption of other necessary nutritents."
imo-by-proxy

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...ht=super+preen
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...ht=super+preen

Many diverse opinions on this subject, most people, I'm sure it's safe to say, do not provide vitamin/ calcium D3 supplements to there snakes, at least at this point in time.

I would expect many converts in the future to this school of thought (supplementation), as the long term needs of captive reptiles become better understood, perceived and appreciated as important and necessary to the long term, multi-generational health and vigor in captive bred Corn snakes (reptiles in general).
imho. CowBoyWay
 
Old 04-28-2003, 04:47 PM   #6
sumguy
Thumbs up supplement source

Have the Love's book, another about corns, and another about snake care in general besides various online care sheets. Nothing mentions "must haves" for supplements. However, I am a new owner and have an open mind and always looking for new info.

Rich - great forum setup and find CowBoyWay's posts very educational.

Found a decent retail site for a variety of supplements but haven't price compared. They have Bene-Bac, vitamins, and calcium supplements - no Super Preen.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com
 
Old 04-28-2003, 04:51 PM   #7
bmm
Vitamins are NOT a must. But you can use them for sure.

But people often forget to mention that dusting crickets each time, or pinkies for snakes CAN lead to a build up. Many people suggest dusting 2 out of three for lizards. Over supplementation is as bad as under.

bmm
 
Old 04-28-2003, 11:35 PM   #8
CowBoyWay
Very good point...

Quote:
Over supplementation is as bad as under.
And your right, I forgot to mention...
One would assume that younger, faster growing Corns and breeder/ egg producing females in particular would have greater nutritional needs than non-breeding adults would obviously.

So if assuming that extra vitamins are not necessarily needed for non-breeder adults, as is some peoples opinion, they very well may be needed for babies and breeders.

By using 2/3 ultrafine Calcium D3 to 1/3 vitamin, mixed up in small batches, and dipping a thawed mouse butt in it every feeding ought not be a problem with over supplementation, especially with naturally sourced vitamin powders such as Superpreen and Herptivites new natural formulation. Baby asprin diluted strength, if you will. imho.

I have/had been using a product called "Prime" by the Canadian company "Hagen" that is sold as a concentrated vitamin, mineral and amino acid cage bird supplement. It has a probiotic package in the formulation. Perhaps easier to find for many than super preen, locally.

Prime contains 14 vitamins and 9 minerals...
micro-encapsulated beneficial bacteria (probiotics)...
...Calcium gluconate carrier adds required calcium, deficient in most supplements. Lysine and methionine amino acids improve diet protein quality and assimilation. Its unique combination of enzymes and acidifiers improve digestion.
http://www.avianattic.com/store/vitamins.html
http://www.birdalog.com/index.cfm/S/..._by_Hagen.html


"Blairs Super-Preen"
Super Preen (Made in the U.S.A.)
A natural nutritional supplement that provides Vitamins, Minerals, Amino Acids, and Electrolytes, plus other nutrient factors... Contains no preservatives or fillers...only the finest and purest ingredients used...
http://www.arcatapet.com/superpreen.cfm

Super preen is a pioneering product and is still considered the best
by many old school Parrot breeders. Been out for decades.

Prime came on the market about a dozen + years ago, and has a huge market share due to Hagens products established, extensive, pet store distribution network. Originally developed to balance out/ correct the deficiencies of a "seed junkie" birds diet. Other uses became apparent with time.

OSTEO-FORM powder Calcium
A "Chelated calcium"...
Osteoform contains organic chelated minerals.
It contains 9 chelated minerals and vitamin D3.
Try the local drugstore or Health food store for bulk powder.

German made "Nekton" brand is another excellent line/ brand of critter vitamins, pricey though. A relatively big variety of specialty formulations for exotic Critters.

It may be easier to find in europe (E.U.) than the other brands.

"Nekton MSA" is a High grade mineral, calcium, D3 and trace element supplement labeled for use in both birds and reptiles.
http://www.feedingtech.com/p0000025.htm

"Herptivite"...
"New from the makers of Rep-Cal. A multivitamin, multimineral and amino acid food supplement for herptiles without Vitamin A.
Instead it uses Bata Carotene so it eliminates the threat of Vitamin A toxicity. Mix/ dilute with calcium...

" HERPTIVITE contains precise levels of vitamins and minerals combined in perfect balance to ensure correct utilization of protein and other essential nutrients for growth..."

Beta carotene sourced " A" is probably the wave of the future with most of these formulations, this Herptivite could be worth a look see. :~}


"Sticky Tongue Farms"

"Miner-All I"
(key product features)
The only product scientifically designed with over 50 vital minerals and trace-minerals found in skin, bones and muscles of wild herps.
Formulated to stick better to insects, mice and vegetation than any other product.

No oyster shell product containing pollutants or dangerous metals.

Used and recommended by top breeders, Zoos, and veterinarians!

Miner-All "O" does not contain Vitamin D3 while Miner-All "I" does contain vitamin D3.
http://www.miner-all.net/STFMINER-ALL.htm


A good "Parrot Supplies" specialty Store will stock some of the above also avian related products (Super preen, Prime, osteoform). "Bird Expo's"/ Shows are another good place to look for supplies.

There are cheaper priced copycat, "cloned" products that have appeared recently, I would stick with "name brands" for now, to protect ones from inferior quality ingredients/ formulations.
Whats the old slogan, "Accept no substitions"...
 

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