Unhealthy Mouse

I'm sure we've been in this same situation many times before: Corn won't eat (shedding, etc.) so the live food becomes your pet for a couple weeks.

In these cases, I keep my mice in a 24" Tupperware container with lots of holes in the lid. I use a jar lid, inside a larger plastic container (so he doesn't flip it as often, and when he does, it just goes into the larger container) and feed him dried oats (they are human food that my mom gave me, but which I wasn't super excited about). TP tubes for hiding and toilet paper or newspaper for bedding.

Things always start out well; the mouse runs around a lot for the first couple of days. He/she eats a lot (possibly too much? I don't go crazy with it, but definitely make sure enough is available) and usually makes a little sleeping nest.

But over the last year, I've had had two mice die within a week or so of getting them. They start getting lethargic. One, I saw trying to walk: It looked like he had a neurological disorder; he was just barely able to put one foot in front of the other. He died within a day.

I just got home today and I now have another third mouse in this state. It's come on since this morning. I had to nudge him to get him walking. I gave him some food and he's eating it slowly and un excitedly.

What are some common causes of these symptoms and of mouse death in this situation generally? Can I save this mouse?

I'd say feed frozen/thawed. For corn snakes? Frozen thawed always gets my vote.

I am having trouble visualizing your mouse habitat. Can you post a photo?
For me, if I did feed live, I'd make sure to have a mouse house set up nearly the same as if it were actually my pet. That includes proper mouse food. However, that may be a bit much for some people. I don't breed mice so I can't help there

Hopefully someone can chime in with a solution to your problem though - apart from switching to f/t.

Unfortunately, they don't really sell proper mouse food in small sizes. Like 25 lb bags is the smallest I'm aware of. The stuff that is sold in small packages for pet mice is, sadly, not the best. But you can do better than just oats. Little bags of pet mouse food would probably be an improvement. A seed mix such as for wild birds would also work as a short term solution. If nothing else, add a few other grain products, like dried bread, or pasta, or cereals that aren't loaded with sugar. Feed it as much as it wants to eat.

However, I don't think that just oats is such a horrible diet that you should be seeing these kinds of symptoms from malnutrition in only a week or so.

2 possibilities immediately come to mind.

1- I don't think the plastic container with lots of holes is allowing enough circulation. Combine that with bedding that isn't optimal, and you are probably getting ammonia odors building up in there. Really yucky and bad for them, but I'd think it would cause respiratory problems, not neurological ones. Is it possible they are getting sneezy or showing other signs of respiratory distress first, and what you have described above are the more advanced symptoms?

2- There is something in the environment that is causing the issues. Like some sort of pesticide in the room that doesn't affect them immediately but is enough that after a week of exposure it kills them. Maybe if it is an old tupperware that has that...BPA I think it is? in it, that affects them after living in it for a week with inadequate air circulation.

I totally agree that for corn snakes, f/t is usually the way to go. That would eliminate your need to occasionally house a mouse, and so the need to figure out the problem goes away. Is there some reason you are feeding live?

As far as saving this mouse, it sounds like he is too far gone. Maybe, if we even knew what the problem was, something could be done. Or maybe a vet could save it. But really, I think even if you took it to the vet and either knew the cause of them problem or the vet was able to figure it out, I think what you are describing is a mouse that is beyond hope.

For your living leftovers:

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133179

Then put 'em in the freezer and save them for next time.

I think a big problem is that they are being provided water in a dish. You're going to have to get a bottle for them.

Thank you all for your input!

I think that ventilation may have been the culprit.

The mouse was open and clear for about 30 minutes and, now, about 5+ hours later, his/her energy had increased and he/she is back to business. I admit that I had been thinking about volume of oxygen in, but not about the volume of waste gases out.

I'm sure my heavy "last meal"-style feeding only contributed to the problem.

I have increased the number of ventilation holes to the top and added a number near the bottom for those heavier-than-air gases!

I'll monitor for the next few days.



F/T vs. Live

I'd say that the main reason that I've tended to feed live has been because a pet food store on my block sells live, but not frozen.

Mr. Fabers (of Fabius Maximus: the Roman Consul who eventually defeated Hannibal during the Second Punic Wars using a strategy of strategic withdrawal) ate frozen for his first year, but has been on live for about two years.

I guess I'd say that deep down inside I've thought that he "liked it more", but I realize that I might be projecting a bit.

What are the primary benefits of F/T?


(I realize I can search this elsewhere, but you guys seem quite nice)

I think you won't really get good circulation just by making holes in the cage. You need some sort of screen. Lots of people convert plastic storage bins (sometimes the same tubs they use for their snakes) by cutting out sections which are then covered with hardware cloth. Here is an example. Notice that the hardware cloth is INSIDE. If you put it outside, they can get at the edges of the plastic and chew it.
http://www.thenationalmouseclub.co.uk/images/wmbox1.jpg

The biggest advantage of f/t and most important reason for feeding f/t vs live is that a live rodent can injure and even possibly kill your snake. If you browse the web related to this subject, you'll eventually find pictures of some poor snake that is still alive (at least when the photos were taken), but has been half eaten by the rodent that was supposed to be eaten by the snake. Bones are showing and it is really horrific. I've seen pics of at least a few different snakes in this state. However, that's not really the issue. That can only happen if the live rodent is left, unattended, with the snake for hours or maybe days. You should never, ever leave a live rodent unattended with your snake, even for a brief time. So that will never happen with someone who is feeding live responsibly.

What can happen, no matter how careful you are, is that the rodent can get in a quick bite when the snake strikes it, much faster than you would have time to react to, and before the snake has managed to constrict enough to kill the prey. Some snakes are very quick and efficient killers and have less risk of this, but even so, it only takes a split second. Most bites will be minor, but if the mouse gets a sensitive place such as an eye, permanent damage can result. I've even heard of instances where a rodent has managed to sever the spinal cord and cause paralyzation in the lower part of the snake and one case where the rodent pierced the skull and caused instant death, although I can't be sure of the sources of those, but it does seem possible even if extremely unlikely. And this, IMO, is the biggest problem with feeding live. Most feedings will go just fine, but each and every time you feed your snake a live prey item, you are taking a risk. You have to decide if that risk is worth it in your individual circumstances. Some snakes just won't eat if it isn't live. That makes it worth it, cuz the snake will die otherwise. But most corns convert to eating f/t quite easily, and also most corns aren't the super quick & efficient killing machines that some other snakes are, so corns are at higher risk, which is why feeding live is highly frowned upon in the corn snake world, but more accepted in the BP world. (BPs are much more finicky eaters and can be very hard to convert to f/t, and also are much more efficient killing machines on average.)

Other advantages to live are a little less clear cut. For many it is more convenient. If you have a stock of frozen mice in your freezer, you don't have to go out and buy a live one each week, and you don't have to worry about what to do with it when the snake occasionally refuses a meal. I raise my own feeders, so it is actually more hassle, but worth it for the safety of the corns.

Another frequently reported advantage is that freezing kills any parasites so they can't be transferred to your snake. However, some parasites can actually withstand being frozen just fine at certain stages of their life cycle. Also, most parasites won't infect 2 totally different species such as a mammal and a reptile (some definitely do). So that advantage is probably not as big as some people think, but I believe it is still more than zero.

NByz said:

I'd say that the main reason that I've tended to feed live has been because a pet food store on my block sells live, but not frozen.


What are the primary benefits of F/T?

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Then go outside your block and stay away from pet stores! I buy mine local from hobbyists and other snake breeders who raise and humanely put down their mice and rats. If there are snakes, there are mice! Put an ad online, or check out the online ad websites (Craig's List, etc.). Next time there's an expo, go check it out - guaranteed to be a couple mice and rat vendors!

Pros to f/t: easy on your time, easy on your wallet (when you don't buy from a store), easy on space, just easy. As for the snake, no risk of getting bit or having a wound/infection from it, as can happen from older and stronger mice. Also, if you have a very soft heart, you may not WANT to feed live! Also don't end up having a bunch of now "pet" mice running around

Cons to f/t: need to put them in the freezer, make sure they are fully thawed before offering, and... sometimes snakes can be picky and may take time to switch if they've only been fed live, but corns aren't usually one of the culprits.

P.S.
I can't stress enough how much I think you should look beyond your block's pet store for food for your snake(s).
I will NEVER buy from a store (personally) if I can help it. How much is a frozen mouse at let's say, PetSmart - $2.50? $3.00 for an adult? I can get 3-4 for that price elsewhere, and they look - and even smell - much healthier.

There are mice breeders who deliver as well, so if transportation is an issue, things can be arranged! That's the beauty of working with local people. Or, if you'd prefer a larger company, I have heard of places like Big Cheese or something, that deliver via mail. Other members on this forum sometimes arrange to have shared deliveries if they live in the same area to save on shipping!

Where there's a will, there's a way.

All the best!

kc261 said:

Little bags of pet mouse food would probably be an improvement. A seed mix such as for wild birds would also work as a short term solution.

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I suggest not using wild bird food, it has SO much added oily fat which helps the birds stay warm and healthy in the winter, but I had a bag of sunflower seeds made for bird feeders leftover from winter and fed some to my hamster. She gobbled them up over the regular food, and within 3 days she was ENORMOUS. She couldn't walk (her belly would touch the floor, her feet could not), she couldn't get to her water bottle, and then her stomach skin popped open. It was horrible. I didn't know what to do with her, but she passed away that evening, so she got buried out back. It was all from the oily seeds. I wish I had taken pics, it was SO fast that she ballooned up that there was nothing I could do for her.

So I would scratch that off my mouse feed list! They need pellets and millet and grains aimed toward rodents.

I am another advocate for feeding F/T. I would never put my kiddos in harm's way nor would I want the mouse to suffer any longer than it has to.

See if there is anyone near you who you might go in with on an order, several of us here in Phoenix do that and it works great.

Awesome guys thanks.

I have had my eyes out for many of those risk factors when feeding live. I can always tell in the first 30 seconds if he's going to eat it or not: hence my need for a mouse house this year!

Money has never been a concern and I do have a good source for frozen in different neighbourhood. Maybe a frozen will be his next one! He probably remembers eating them as it was only two years ago!

Hmm. That's interesting. I had no idea they added oils to bird seed. I did know they had a fairly high fat/oil content naturally. I've seen people suggest bird seed before, and I have used it as a sort of supplement/enrichment/treat when I used to raise mice, but I never gave it exclusively.

Still, any animal eating itself to death in 3 days is just... wow. I wonder if there may have been other issues that complicated it?

If you do try frozen and have any trouble getting him to take it, my first suggestion would be to get the head very hot (some people use a blow dryer aimed right at the head, recently I've had good success with dipping the head in VERY hot water), and use tongs to wiggle it around a little bit. Corns usually aren't a problem though, assuming they are healthy and the temps are correct and stuff like that.

Since you say he's a he... have you noticed any pattern to his refusals that relate to the time of year? Some males get distracted during breeding season.

kc261 said:

Hmm. That's interesting. I had no idea they added oils to bird seed. I did know they had a fairly high fat/oil content naturally. I've seen people suggest bird seed before, and I have used it as a sort of supplement/enrichment/treat when I used to raise mice, but I never gave it exclusively.

Still, any animal eating itself to death in 3 days is just... wow. I wonder if there may have been other issues that complicated it?

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She was a dwarf hamster, and they don't live long. She outlived her 3 sisters, and I just poured a handful in her bowl one night. It was like she immediately went from healthy to extremely obese in days.

I think the seeds in rodent food is roasted or toasted to remove excess fat and oils, when you look at the seeds in the wild bird food bag they look shinier, like they are oiled down. Strangest (and saddest) thing I've gone through with my hamsters!

Dang Guys.

I guess it wasn't ventilation. Little mouse was happy and rearing to go last night. I moved him into another container w/o a lid (it was just too tall for him to get out) while cleaning the other one.

After work today he had the same symptoms. Tonight, dead...


Yes, the corn is a male and this is the third spring in a row where he has not eaten for like... 4-10 weeks, and spends the day trying to get out of his viv. Definitely mating season.

Just to be clear: he has been in the non-lid container all day.

Sorry you lost the little guy. It did shock me when your description of him sounded so bad, but then he seemed to get better. Mice just aren't supposed to be lethargic animals, so when they are (other than brief moments of sleepiness) it is usually a sign that they are quite sick.