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Husbandry and Basic Care General stuff about keeping and maintaining cornsnakes in captivity.

Aspen as a substrate = dangerous??
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Old 03-04-2007, 10:01 AM   #31
diamondlil
What about citing behavioural preference? As in the burrowing? How much stress does not being able to burrow cause?
 
Old 03-04-2007, 10:04 AM   #32
SnakeAround
I think that if a piece sticks to the everted tissue, it will just be shoved off when the tissue is getting in again..... I cannot imagine a piece of substrate beign stuck in between that tissue and the ventral scales. And would it be, I guess the snake would feel it and just open up his vent again and slither over a surface to rub it off. I think they are smart enough to do so because they also rub their body's to rough surfaces when shedding.

And thinking that snakes do search for the right bedding to poo on just makes me chuckle... mine all poo on the bedding and hardly ever on a smooth surface.
 
Old 03-04-2007, 10:27 AM   #33
Kitty
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyflier
In the wild, I'm 100% POSITIVE that snakes do NOT go looking for newspaper, ...
Well, of course, they go looking for newspaper. What else would they do while they relax and wait except read the daily headlines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by those"guys"
We've already been through this. There simply has not been studies done (because there is no funding for studies of this nature.)
Oh, please. Has anyone tried asking for funding? The government funds some pretty crazy research. I'll bet this wouldn't even make 'em bat an eyelash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by themagain
1) When reptiles defecate, cloacal tissue everts....
I'm willing to bet it works for monkeys, too. Be careful or you may end up with a commode sucked into your rectum.

Quote:
2) When this happens, small particles can STICK to the tissue. It is wet. Lick your fingertip and touch your aspen, you'll get the idea.
um ... no? My snakes crap on this stuff. I am not doing this!

Quote:
3) Since your snake is in an enclosure and not in the wild, they can not get OFF the substrate of your choice.
Okay, I'll give them this one. But it does nothing to strengthen their assertion without scientific proof. Ya' know, that silly scientific method referred to above.


All-in-all, I say enjoy the entertainment they unwittingly provide and look for real information elsewhere.
 
Old 03-04-2007, 01:48 PM   #34
Jrgh17
Quote:
Be careful or you may end up with a commode sucked into your rectum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitty
Okay, I'll give them this one. But it does nothing to strengthen their assertion without scientific proof. Ya' know, that silly scientific method referred to above.
In response to that one, who here with 20+ snakes wants to line half of their enclosure with aspen and half with newspaper... we can see which side gets crapped on more.

Personally, I'd volunteer to do the statistics and write the scientific paper for it. It'd probably give my career a boost.
 
Old 03-04-2007, 03:19 PM   #35
Hypancistrus
Quote:
Originally Posted by diamondlil
What about citing behavioural preference? As in the burrowing? How much stress does not being able to burrow cause?
Already did. They said corn snakes aren't a natural burrowing species, and they would keep their rosy boas and kenyan sand boas on sand.

I am not going to bother going back at this point. A few of the things said were borderline insulting... implying that I am a horrible pet owner for even subjecting my snake to such an awful risk... to which I replied there's a risk in handling as well, in causing the snakes stress, which might turn them off food or make them more susceptible to parasites. Yet we do handle our snakes... then again, I dunno, maybe they don't!

Here's one of the most recent posts.
Quote:
...the ball is in our court to prove you wrong...the ball was in the publics court to prove ddt and smoking wrong (not manufacturing companies)...COP OUT...
The fact that you say that you never witnessed your animal defecating tells me that you simply don't spend enough time with it/don't have enough experience with reptiles. I got a call from a local herp keepers wife who was convinced that her snake was dying because she saw a red ring around its vent as it was defecating...you know what it was? Everted cloacal tissue coming into contact with the clean nonparticle substrate that they use! Imagine if that was aspen... Like wiping your butt with a handfull of...well...aspen shreds.
Pros of aspen: looks nice, easy to clean, cheap
Cons of aspen: potential of ingestion during feeding, potential ingestion during defecation, breeding ground for parasites, If proper care isn't taken can hide feces, harbors bacteria, dust can be taken into animal's respiratory system...list goes on and on
This is the guy who keeps his animals on shelf liner. How pleasant for them. Very natural and comforting I bet.

At this point, I've pretty much had it with the negativity and personal attacks. I started out trying to honestly assess the situation. Asking questions of both sides and trying to keep it from becoming a situation in which people were simply insulting each other. I have to say now that I agree 100% with Waldo. These individuals believe they are right to the point that they are willing to ostracize and attack others to "prove their point." If anyone would like to read the entire thread, including Waldo's and my posts, please send me a PM. I always thought this particular forum was above this kind of crap... apparently I was wrong, or things have changed over the past few months.
 
Old 03-04-2007, 03:48 PM   #36
plasticknives
I'd just like to say that i have witnessed my snake defecating- and she lifts her vent about half an inch off of the ground/ whatever substrate she's on. It seems that it would be difficult for anything to stick there if it is not touching anything, and its more of a "going out" motion than a "sucking in" motion anyways.

I have NOT witnessed any 'everting' of anything.


Impaction by feeding is easily solved by a feeding box. I can understand maybe that BP owners would not want to use one if their snakes are extra finicky, however, corns don't seem to have a problem with it at all. Corn care, is different than BP care.

Aspen is really easy to clean- "fossilized" poop is avoided by cleaning out the all the aspen every month or so, and spot cleaning is quite sufficient until then, I think. MUCH easier than cleaning repti-carpet every time she poos...
the aspen I find also absorbs smell. When she was on newspaper, I could smell when she had gone to the washroom, but with aspen, I can't ever.
this could be seen as a con, i guess, but i live in a small apartment. I don't want to smell snake poo- and I check her cage every day for soiled aspen, so it's not an excuse to leave it dirty.


Another pro of aspen is the ability to distribute heat very well, and provide a temp gradient that is very easy for the snake to regulate itself.
My corn doesnt "burrow", but she will carve out a little depression for herself on top of the heat mat- sometimes deep, sometimes not so deep, depending on how hot the mat is.

I could NOT for the life of me, get a proper heat distribution for the time that I had her on newspaper. It was much to hot locally, and much to cool everywhere else. there wasn't much choice for her regarding hides then, because i could only get one to the proper temperature and the rest were too cold.

With aspen I can get 3 hides within the warm heat range and 3 within the cool range, no problem. She used every single hide, and I would say exibits NO signs of stress, at all.
 
Old 03-04-2007, 03:49 PM   #37
Jrgh17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypancistrus
I am not going to bother going back at this point. A few of the things said were borderline insulting... implying that I am a horrible pet owner for even subjecting my snake to such an awful risk... to which I replied there's a risk in handling as well, in causing the snakes stress, which might turn them off food or make them more susceptible to parasites. Yet we do handle our snakes... then again, I dunno, maybe they don't!
I've been watching that thread since last night... and I agree that they're resorting to indirect insults and such at this point.

I think we need to give some help here. So c'mon people... a list of reasons why you use aspen!

1) Inexpensive
2) Absorbs fecal matter well
3) Looks good
4) Doesn't get soggy (like newspaper does)
5) Snakes get good traction (from the Cornsnake Manual)
6) Easy to "spot-clean"
7) Can be entirely replaced to sanitize for cleaning
8) Shy animals can tunnel and hide (and most seem to enjoy it)
9) The animal is able to choose if it would like to sit on the glass (closer to the heat source) or on a layer of substrate (a bit farther away, but still warm)
10) No existing evidence against it (Sorry, I couldn't resist)
11) Holds humidity from misting pretty well
12) Disperses heat well
13) No harmful phenols (odors from chemicals in the wood)
14) ...

Okay, I'm out of ideas, but I think there's a few more I missed. I'm interested to see people continue this list though.
 
Old 03-04-2007, 03:51 PM   #38
plasticknives
sorry forgot one point-

I find that being able to provide proper heat distribution is much mroe important to me than the possibility that she might "suck" aspen into her vent.

Without proper heat, regurges are possible, which I personally feel is much more dangerous than "wiping with aspen shavings."
 
Old 03-04-2007, 03:54 PM   #39
Jrgh17
Dang! I'm slow at typing again!
 
Old 03-04-2007, 04:01 PM   #40
Jrgh17
Oh yeah!

14) "Soaks up" the smell
 

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