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good find or no?

Nope not as the entire solution- But the guy that everyone's getting on here has said that he's also decided not to breed much next year- that's clearly the solution he'd prefer. If he was so uncaring then why stop? He could just breed another army and dump them in the freezer if they don't sell, if he didn't give a darn.
 
Well, if I had $300 snakes that I was having difficulty moving at this time, I'd probably hang on to them. Nearly any morph in that price point will become much more valueable/saleable as a yearling, two year old, adult. People get impatient and want to breed ASAP- they are thrilled to find an older "nice" morph.

In my opinion, breeding animals and killing them because you can't sell them _for the price you want_ _at this time_ is wrong, plain and simple. Nothing you say would make me think it was ok.
 
I wouldn't try and change your mind, it's just that I can see both sides.. I'm not entirely comfortable with it being JUST about money, but I don't think his decision was that clear cut.
 
Tom e:
just because I don't believe that any kind of life worth living is given to corns nobody wants.
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I agree. but we're talking about snakes that nobody wants to sell because it's not ideal to their interpretation of what the market should be!!! so they kill them. What other market actively destroys their product when the prices drop? Do they throw out TV's when they become outdated or the market price drops? NO! they drop the price! " But we're dealing with living animals that require time and money to keep alive?" YEP! Sure are, That's one of those terrible responsibilities you take on when breeding live animals.
 
ForkedTung said:
Tom e: I agree. but we're talking about snakes that nobody wants to sell because it's not ideal to their interpretation of what the market should be!!! so they kill them. What other market actively destroys their product when the prices drop? Do they throw out TV's when they become outdated or the market price drops? NO! they drop the price! " But we're dealing with living animals that require time and money to keep alive?" YEP! Sure are, That's one of those terrible responsibilities you take on when breeding live animals.
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The argument could be made that you can leave a TV on the rack a long time and who cares simply BECAUSE it's not a living thing.

'That's one of the terrible responsibilities you take on when breeding live animals,' can be used for both sides of this debate..
 
I'd keep every snake I ever bred until it died happily of old age rather than kill a single one for- what was the reason again? To not drop the market value? So I wouldn't have to pay to keep it alive until I could sell it for a reasonable price? To not have so many to take care of? To not take up so much room? To not eat into my precious free time? You don't just kill healthy animals that YOU CREATED just because it suits you.
 
tom e said:
The argument could be made that you can leave a TV on the rack a long time and who cares simply BECAUSE it's not a living thing.
EXACTLY! it's not a living thing, It doesn't require care, although it does cost money ( overhead) to store it

'That's one of the terrible responsibilities you take on when breeding live animals,' can be used for both sides of this debate..
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Correct,! I'm not trying to change minds, I just find it reprehensible to destroy a living being solely because it doesn't fit one's perception of market value. That is what is at issue. The argument for it doesn't even follow core economic principles.
 
If you think that's all he had in mind, I understand your outrage. I just don't think that's all there is to it.
 
And yes, product IS destroyed when there is a surplus that cannot be sold at the market price. Heck, the government destroys surplus crop to KEEP it off the market.

Male animals/unwanted animals are destroyed all the time in the food industry. It's sad, there ARE better options, but they aren't as immediate, and they are up to the producer.

One of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen was a pair of La Mancha goats (my favorites) that came into the vet hospital where I volunteered. She came in for shots. He came in to be euthanized. They were siblings. You know what was wrong with him? He was a boy.

So no, culling isn't what we want in the pet industry. It really, really isn't. But it IS an accepted practice in animal production industries, and really, for each snake that gets sold to a good home, how many are improperly fed, heated, and housed until they die a generally miserable, at least to us, death? How many horror stories have we heard?

Moral issues depend on your perspective. Is it better to provide substandard care/housing to all the snakes you have now, or reduce the population humanely, reevaluate the market, and maintain a smaller number with adequate care and housing? Yes, they were overproduced. Does that mean that ALL of his snakes, other pets, and family members should suffer from the resources drain those additional snakes provide, especially when you are not confident that your other disposal options are any MORE humane then euthanasia? You run into similar issues with ANY industry that plans for production long before the supply can really be evaluated, ie, hatchling season.

Do we have to be happy about it? No.
Is it up to us to impose OUR moral and ethical criteria on others, especially without the ability to truely comprehend the obstacles and additional obligations of the person in question? Also, No.

That's just my in-econ-this-quarter opinion :)
 
ForkedTung said:
Correct,! I'm not trying to change minds, I just find it reprehensible to destroy a living being solely because it doesn't fit one's perception of market value. That is what is at issue. The argument for it doesn't even follow core economic principles.
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No, I meant because it's not a living thing, we don't have to worry for the quality of life the TV has. So yeah, sure keep it till it sells. That's what it appears they do at my local Petco.
They stay small too, so either they aren't so expensive to maintain as you think, or they are just flying out the door and being replaced. Not sure which possibility is worse.
 
Darcpixie said:
And yes, product IS destroyed when there is a surplus that cannot be sold at the market price. Heck, the government destroys surplus crop to KEEP it off the market.
You're referring to milk dumping etc.. Yes this does happen while people starve. Governments are not known for their business sense

Male animals/unwanted animals are destroyed all the time in the food industry. It's sad, there ARE better options, but they aren't as immediate, and they are up to the producer.

One of the most heartbreaking things I've ever seen was a pair of La Mancha goats (my favorites) that came into the vet hospital where I volunteered. She came in for shots. He came in to be euthanized. They were siblings. You know what was wrong with him? He was a boy.

So no, culling isn't what we want in the pet industry. It really, really isn't. But it IS an accepted practice in animal production industries, and really, for each snake that gets sold to a good home, how many are improperly fed, heated, and housed until they die a generally miserable, at least to us, death? How many horror stories have we heard?At least the potential is there for life.

Moral issues depend on your perspective. Is it better to provide substandard care/housing to all the snakes you have now, or reduce the population humanely, reevaluate the market, and maintain a smaller number with adequate care and housing? Yes, they were overproduced. Does that mean that ALL of his snakes, other pets, and family members should suffer from the resources drain those additional snakes provide, especially when you are not confident that your other disposal options are any MORE humane then euthanasia? You run into similar issues with ANY industry that plans for production long before the supply can really be evaluated, ie, hatchling season. no one needs to "suffer" if he sell them for market value or just donates them. I've personally donated over 20 snakes this year to two seperate causes

Do we have to be happy about it? No.
Is it up to us to impose OUR moral and ethical criteria on others, especially without the ability to truely comprehend the obstacles and additional obligations of the person in question? Also, No.I agree! I am not trying to impose my morals or ethics. This was posted in a public forum. I am commenting upon how I feel about the practice. This actually happens quite frequently on forums
Finally I can understand how frustrated he must feel that his snakes are not worth what he thinks they should be. I don't think he is evil or mean or even a bad person. I do feel that his morals are questionable with concern to this particular issue only. I recognize also that people will continue to do these types of things regardless of how I feel about them. I will also let my feeling be known whenever issues like this are posted in a public forum.


That's just my in-econ-this-quarter opinion :)
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Finally this is something I tell my young son about how I feel about killing things: If it's not going to be eaten and it's not going to hurt you then you probably shouldn't kill it.
 
ForkedTung said:
Tom e: I agree. but we're talking about snakes that nobody wants to sell because it's not ideal to their interpretation of what the market should be!!! so they kill them. What other market actively destroys their product when the prices drop? Do they throw out TV's when they become outdated or the market price drops? NO! they drop the price! " But we're dealing with living animals that require time and money to keep alive?" YEP! Sure are, That's one of those terrible responsibilities you take on when breeding live animals.
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No...what we're talking about is someone euthanizing their own animals for their own reasons. Whether or not you or anyone else find moral is really beside the point.

I euthanize healthy normals to use as food for picky kings. Got a problem with that? Tough. They are my snakes, and they serve a MUCH better purpose as nutrition for difficult snakes than sitting in a pet shop waiting to be sold to a young kid that will kill it with bad husbandry. Ironically enough, that's where kinked and deformed babies go, too. And how many normals I euthanize...none of your business. I won't defend my actions, as my actions are not "wrong"...they are mine to make. There is no rule or regulation written saying that I CAN'T freeze them and use them as food...so I will continue to do so until it becomes illegal.

As someone else said...if it is MY responsibility to care for the animals I produce, it is MY decision to make when these animals serve a better purpose dead than living. That's the bottom line, IMO, in this debate. Some people would never kill a healthy snake. Cool. I respect your decision and wish you the best of luck with that. Some people will kill a healthy snake to save money. I respect your opinion and wish you luck with that. In other words...whatever decision YOU make to do with YOUR animals...I wish you luck with that providing the animal never suffers.

And with that last line...how many animals that get wholesaled to pet shops end up in the hands of people that simply don't care, and suffer for a year or two before they needlessly die due to poor husbandry? Is that potentiality really more humane than a quick, painless death in the freezer?
 
To the OP:

If you make the decision to breed a kinked animal, it is your responsibility to fully disclose that you willing bred an animal with a defect and you have no way of 100% knowing whether it was an inherited problem.

Would I purchase and breed a kinked animal (regardless of whether or not I trusted the seller)? Nope. I'm in the culling camp of things as I believe as a breeder it is my responsibility to produce and provide the best animals to my customers.
 
Drizzt80 said:
Orange slices ARE okay, just don't put any pears, grated carrots, or grapes in there . . . ;) Nothing worse than crunchy crap while eating JELL-Ohhhh!

D80
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OK :realhot:Brent :angry01:now we have a REAL moral-ethical dilemma!!!:realhot:Orange slices are NOT OK! and pears YES!!!! You can put some in my Meatloaf or even my coffee and I'll still drink it!
 
tom e said:
No, I meant because it's not a living thing, we don't have to worry for the quality of life the TV has. So yeah, sure keep it till it sells. That's what it appears they do at my local Petco.
They stay small too, so either they aren't so expensive to maintain as you think, or they are just flying out the door and being replaced. Not sure which possibility is worse.
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Yeah, but what about the oranges vs. pears:noevil:
 
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