Charcoal or Anery, Pure Corn or Hybrid?

rusticreptiles said:

Thank you! LOL. She has a fat head! Or a turkey wattle...one of the RichZ pics looked a little thick around the neck but not quite the same. She doesn't quite have the same look about her face/head. Maybe she's just an ugly corn or it's the hybrid influence. I can't wait to see her babies. I'm going to hold a couple back to see what they mature into as well. (snakes hopefully

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What leads you to believe that it is a hybrid? Just because someone may THINK it is so, doesn't necessarily make it true.

As for head shapes, heck, have you seen how much variation there is in the shape of HUMAN heads? Which ones of those indicates a hybrid?

Hi Rich!
Your snakes are so beautiful. Thanks for the additional photos. My friend was told by a guy that has been breeding for years that no way was it a pure corn. I'm new and wasn't sure so that's why I asked on here. As far as her head I have other corns and she is the only one with the large "jowls" and even with all the pics shared she just seems a smidge "off". I want her to be a pure corn so I'm happy saying she is, just want to be sure so I don't misrepresent her offspring.
Thanks for the expert eye!

Rich Z said:

What leads you to believe that it is a hybrid? Just because someone may THINK it is so, doesn't necessarily make it true.

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Remember rustic, we're giving you our opinions on her. The "hybrid foul" card gets thrown out there alot, and it always comes down to peoples opinions, be it based on pictures, rumors, experience (or lack of). It's my opinion that yours looks alot like mine, and mine has some opinions that it has a rat snake in it's background. It's Rich's opinion, based on oodles of years of working with corns, that it's a standard anery A...Who's opinion is right? Short of DNA testing, who knows? And in the great scheme of working with snakes so far removed from a regular ol' found in a field corn snake, who cares?

As for head shapes, heck, have you seen how much variation there is in the shape of HUMAN heads? Which ones of those indicates a hybrid?

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the pointed ones, with antennae...

Well. Since there is differing opinions on here and with other breeders I've asked, I will just say "unknown genetics" and see what I get! Thanks a lot for the opinions and beautiful photos of all the snakes.

Charcoals have black eyes, no gray, so it can't be a charcoal, though might be anery AND charcoal if the breeder has a valid reason to think it is charcoal. As far as I know, charcoal + anery can give gray eyes.

Thanks! I'm still learning so all this is very helpful. I feel bad for my friend that paid for a Charcoal though! I got her in a trade knowing she might not be so I don't feel misled. I know it's common, but it would be nice if people didn't know if they would just say unknown genetics.

rusticreptiles said:

Thanks! I'm still learning so all this is very helpful. I feel bad for my friend that paid for a Charcoal though! I got her in a trade knowing she might not be so I don't feel misled. I know it's common, but it would be nice if people didn't know if they would just say unknown genetics.

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You really can't blame people for not knowing exactly what they are working with. Towards the end I was putting more and more question marks on my records for the animals I was producing. And I had a pretty good handle on the complete ancestry of what I had. There are so many animals over the years that have been culled out as normals carrying bizarre mixtures of genes that people who pick these up and later breed them will be coming up with all sorts of genetic anomalies that will be nearly impossible to accurately identify without extensive breeding trials. Heck, how many different genetic types will produce a hypo looking effect in a corn snake? How about anerythristic looking effect? And how many combinations of those can there be? There is going to be a lot of nothing more than pure guesses putting labels on a LOT of animals.

I believe that NOT knowing exactly what you are working with is going to pretty much be the rule rather than the exception. Seriously, how many people out there KNOW absolutely the complete genetic history of their animals back more than two or three generations?

True. However, if I sought out a Charcoal and a breeder sold me an Anery I wouldn't be impressed. Especially if I paid more for a Charcoal than the Anerys that were for sale. Which is what happened to my friend. She bought her as a Charcoal for a breeding project, realizing after the fact this snake looked more Anery than Charcoal she decided to let me take her since she was not what she needed. Doesn't seem right to me that's all.
I understand what you are saying, just that it seems that some people are more than happy to pull the wool over a newbies eyes.

rusticreptiles said:

True. However, if I sought out a Charcoal and a breeder sold me an Anery I wouldn't be impressed. Especially if I paid more for a Charcoal than the Anerys that were for sale. Which is what happened to my friend. She bought her as a Charcoal for a breeding project, realizing after the fact this snake looked more Anery than Charcoal she decided to let me take her since she was not what she needed. Doesn't seem right to me that's all.
I understand what you are saying, just that it seems that some people are more than happy to pull the wool over a newbies eyes.

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Not necessarily. If you have ever bred adults that were het for both Charcoal and Anerythrism, you would soon find out that it is not as easy as you would think to tell them apart as babies. Particularly if you have pattern genes involved as well, as quite often they will somewhat alter the coloration enough to be confusing for even the most experience breeder. Heck, for that matter throw hypo in the mix and see how easily you can tell Ghosts from Phantoms (or whatever they are called now).

Seriously, most new people getting into this do not have even a hint of a clue about this. They are expecting black and white in a world just chock full of all kinds of levels of gray.

In your above mentioned case, it's entirely possible that the breeder did not even know there was Anerythrism in the gene pool being worked with. So ANY grayish looking snake to hatch out would have been labeled as being a Charcoal by default.

Everyone needs to be aware of this problem and not just take anything for granted or EXPECT everyone to have a fool proof method to absolutely be able to accurately identify everything they hatch out. Today is nothing at all like it was when the ONLY genes we had to play with were Amelanism and Anerythrism, and a Snow Corn was a very big deal.

Interesting. I guess I'm more accustomed to mammals! LOL. I'm definately learning a lot and appreciate your feedback Rich. So basically when you are purchasing you are taking a gamble on what you are getting. Good to know. I'm trying to soak in as much as I can but when you get two or three different viewpoints on a subject it's hard to know which one is right. I've only seen whats in the CornSnake Morph Guide 2010 and see that there are so many more variations that it is mind-boggling. How does a new person filter through all of what is out there? Since you've been so helpful would you mind putting your two cents in on my other post - Visable Hets? I need all the guidance I can get. Thank you!

So basically when you are purchasing you are taking a gamble on what you are getting.

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In a way. You are gambling on the fact you are getting what you think you are getting. You are gambling that the person you are getting your snake from knows what he/she is talking about, or is honest, or can tell you it's a "so and so" corn", and it is because I used "this" and "that" to produce it. In a lot of cases knowing what to look for and having a good idea of what you are seeing answers your question, but as has been said, most morphs show a wide range of expressions that can lead to misidentification from the most experienced of keepers. Do your homework, ask questions, if someone doesn't, or can't, answer them in regards to an animal you are interested in it may be time to look elsewhere. As far as visible "hets" you'll get a lot more "opinions" on this, and I'll pass on it

How does a new person filter through all of what is out there?

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We're all still filtering through it all, so don't think you're alone. Don't overthink it, ask all the questions you can, spend time here reading what you can, and don't be afraid to question something you think may be wrong :*)

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the responses and am happy to be learning so much.

Oh Rich, looking at these pictures of your adults really makes me wish you were still in business!

Rich Z said:

Seriously, most new people getting into this do not have even a hint of a clue about this. They are expecting black and white in a world just chock full of all kinds of levels of gray.

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I can bet that you're still pretty happy to be retired though! :cheers:

Jessicat said:

Oh Rich, looking at these pictures of your adults really makes me wish you were still in business!



I can bet that you're still pretty happy to be retired though! :cheers:

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I have to admit that I do miss the hatching season. Most of the rest of it, eh, not so much.....

But honestly when I looked to what I expect the future to bring, yes it was time to ride off into the sunset. I'm just hoping Connie and I don't live so long that we run out of money and wind up in some sort of old folks home. Trying to figure out if you have planned well enough has a big hole in the equation when you try to fill in a number for how many years you need to plan on living.