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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available.

Palmetto question
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Old 12-26-2015, 06:10 PM   #41
DuxorW
I guess it's possible that even if ultra mutation arose from a mutation in the corn snake OCA2 gene, it's still possible that corns descended from ultras are hybrids, if the corn it cropped up in was hybrid to begin with. So maybe proving the mutation arose from the corn snake locus and not the gray rat equivalent won't really settle things once and for all.
 
Old 12-26-2015, 06:18 PM   #42
chris68
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxorW View Post
So maybe proving the mutation arose from the corn snake allele and not the gray rat allele won't really settle things once and for all.
Depends on whether or not you believe there were originally two lines of ultra-based snakes. I do remember hearing of corns called "ultra hypo's" that seemed to be out on the west coast of the US; I do not know if these were one and the same as ultras, something completely different, or just a neat name for a pretty hypo line. Hypo snakes have long been a bane to certain breeders, insofar as figuring out what they may be; a pretty hypo, a different form of hypo, just a line bred look with no hypo involved, etc...
 
Old 12-26-2015, 07:07 PM   #43
Chip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shiari View Post
Stripes don't look like any other corn snake morph. Nor do Lavenders. Nor do amels.

A leucistic morph, of which the palmetto is one, is going to have light colored eyes like that. You see it in the texas rat leucistics and the black rat leucistics so it's only natural that a corn snake would have the same characteristic.
Agreed. Amel rattlesnakes and cobras might be the only morphs that someone out there doesn't call a hybrid. The same recessive (and dominant, co-dom, etc.) genes pop up in vastly unrelated species. This black rat was found in the mountains not too far from here:

I would bet my store that if this animal was bred to a palmetto, it would produce "palmetto" hybrids. (and if my friend can replicate it, we'll send a male to Don to test that theory on)

In the end, we can only decide with our eyes, and if we trust the people who produced an animal (or not). And terms like "hybrid" are loose to begin with. Just staying on the topic of gray rats, weren't they a subspecies of corn not long ago? I recall Hobart's "Snakes as Pets" had the gray rat as Elaphe guttata spiloides and "red rats" as Elaphe guttata guttata at the time of print, meaning the animals were subspecies of the same species. So with one taxonomic change, rootbeers suddenly became hybrids? For me, a getula king and a corn are 100% different species of snake. A corn and a gray rat? Not so sure. I don't think I could pick them out of a lineup in a black and white photo with much certainty. But regardless of how strict your parameters are, there is no way to know what genes are in captive populations. For that matter, I've caught a lot of coastal corns with faint yellow rat stripes and more slender bodies. It even happens in nature. You could make an argument that there is no such thing as a corn snake, if your standards were strict enough.
 
Old 12-26-2015, 07:15 PM   #44
DuxorW
^the forums need a "like" button.
 
Old 12-26-2015, 07:21 PM   #45
DuxorW
Even humans (except some sub-Saharan Africans) have sequences derived from a different species (Neanderthals). So I'm not one to quibble about a 99% "pure corn." Especially since all wild corns almost certainly have DNA derived from hybridization.
 
Old 12-26-2015, 08:13 PM   #46
chris68
I love that black rat Chip . And your point about the ever-changing classification of what "it" is is spot on. They are all "rat snakes" right? The only time purity of corns seems to be a hot button issue is when a new morph comes out, with the level of outrage = asking price. Whether it's justified, in regards to purity still remains conjecture and opinion...

And crossing pines, milks, corns, with rats, kings and gophers has been going on a long time, apparently. Everyone bought or traded snakes amongst themselves, became well known as well as unknown breeders, and established the "hobby population" of morph corn snakes, with all the unknowns that goes along with that mishmash coupled with the human nature of always messing with a good thing to start with. At this point deal with it, or work with locale stuff. I think John Cherry has amels directly from Dr Bechtels original amel breedings, someone else (Howie Sherman?) has an amel line from locale specific Okeetees. Rich had Pine Island locale anery's and his first caramels were from a w/c pet store find. Lotta folks work with locale specific normals. Start there...or just enjoy the hobby for all the pretty corns
 
Old 12-26-2015, 10:14 PM   #47
Myca
I love that black rat too. I think you have a great idea.
 
Old 12-26-2015, 10:39 PM   #48
Dragonling
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuxorW View Post
Plus isn't the black rat leucistic mutation incomplete dominant?
Don seems quite convinced that palmetto is also incomplete dominant. I mean, the hets are visually dissimilar to their non-het siblings. He even noted the similarity of other leucistic rats hets to palmetto hets: the lighter color, and especially a bit of faint lateral silvering. Of course that doesn't mean it must be a hybrid. Haven't plenty of mutations arisen in multiple species independently of each other that function basically the same across the board?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris68 View Post
someone else (Howie Sherman?) has an amel line from locale specific Okeetees.
I am so freaking excited about this possible new amel gene, you have no idea. Well, I say new...Don may have had them for oh, around 15+ years now? But I mean have you flipping seen them?? 😍😍😍
 
Old 12-26-2015, 11:16 PM   #49
DuxorW
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonling View Post
Don seems quite convinced that palmetto is also incomplete dominant. I mean, the hets are visually dissimilar to their non-het siblings. He even noted the similarity of other leucistic rats hets to palmetto hets: the lighter color, and especially a bit of faint lateral silvering. Of course that doesn't mean it must be a hybrid. Haven't plenty of mutations arisen in multiple species independently of each other that function basically the same across the board?


I am so freaking excited about this possible new amel gene, you have no idea. Well, I say new...Don may have had them for oh, around 15+ years now? But I mean have you flipping seen them?? 😍😍😍
Interesting, I didn't know this about het palmettos. But you are right that it doesn't really mean anything in terms of it being a hybrid. Thanks!
 
Old 12-27-2015, 01:18 AM   #50
Rich Z
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris68 View Post
Rich I think you know this but for the rest of the class...Andy Barr produced the first "ultras" from his "Grey Snow" line, the line he used to promote as "frosted Cremes", Grey rat X Corn crosses...Whether or not the ultra came from the corn snake(s) used in these breedings, a grey rat(s), or it was just something that "popped up" initially in breedings has never been confirmed by him...As well as the story that there were two lines of ultra's, one pure corn, one corn/grey rat...It's plausible, but no proof has ever been forthcoming on it...I've had several conversations about them (ultras) with Mike Shivers. Andy's collection was full of "crossed" animals, per Mike. That Ultra and the Amel gene found in corns produces a visible het has always been interesting to myself. Don't know if this makes all Ultra based corns hybrids...Does make them suspect...but what isn't suspect in corn morphs anymore?...I kept "grey Snows" (aka Tequila Sunrises) for years...They were identical to "Frosted creams", but toned down some in their extreme "frosted" look...Kinda like you'd expect them to be with more corn genes than grey rat via outcrossing
Quote:
Originally Posted by chris68 View Post
Depends on whether or not you believe there were originally two lines of ultra-based snakes. I do remember hearing of corns called "ultra hypo's" that seemed to be out on the west coast of the US; I do not know if these were one and the same as ultras, something completely different, or just a neat name for a pretty hypo line. Hypo snakes have long been a bane to certain breeders, insofar as figuring out what they may be; a pretty hypo, a different form of hypo, just a line bred look with no hypo involved, etc...
Yeah, I remember Andy Barr. He was selling animals at the Tampa reptile show a long while back and I actually bought some animals from him that he was calling "Frosteds". Of course I asked him about them, and he claimed that they were "pure" corns. He even pointed out various lines he was selling and identified which ones were "pure" and which ones were hybrids. But after working a while with them, I became convinced that they were not "pure" corns, and sold off the lot of them.

Then there were the "ultra hypos" that were being sold by Mike Falcon, also out of the Tampa area, I believe. I interrogated Mike unmercifully about them, and his story never wavered. He claimed they were "pure" corns. And after working with them for a number of years, I never saw any evidence that convinced me otherwise.

The term "ultra" in this context was simply a designator to indicate that it was a form of hypomelanism, just a cut above from the other known hypos at the time. My belief is that these were what we now called "Ultramels" and many MANY ultras were being sold off as just regular hypomelanistics. The mixture of amelanistics that were being produced wasn't really noticed as having anything at all with the "ultra" gene and no one realized that the especially brilliantly colored ones were something completely different from what we were used to working with up to that time. Sorry, memory fails me, but I believe it was Chuck (SerpWidgets) and someone else who actually figured out the relationship between "ultra" and amelanism.

Next in the lineup was Mike Shiver, also from the Tampa area, who was selling a line of corns that he was calling "Ambers" because they were so similar to my own Hypo Caramel line, but his were exceptional looking. I also questioned Mike countless times about them, and he too claimed they were "pure". These also came from the "ultra hypo" lineage, and since "ultramel" was completely unknown at that time, when combined with Caramel it just produced some spectacular looking animals, and some that looked every bit like the Ambers (hypomelanistic caramels) that I was producing. Obviously these all got mixed up in the marketplace from being sold for years under the same label by multiple people. Again, I saw nothing in the least that would have suggested that those ultramel caramels were anything but "pure" corns.

As for the "ultras" being a hybrid between corns and gray rat snakes, I guess I would find that a lot easier to swallow if someone had some examples of gray rat snakes also exhibiting this genetic trait. Maybe someone has, but so far I haven't seen it. So with that in mind, the suggestion appears to be that ultra was a spontaneous mutation that ONLY happened when corn snakes were bred into or by gray rat snakes. Honestly, while not impossible, just strikes me as quite a stretch of a coincidence.

Now some people have commented in relation to the palmettos that they believe they are "pure" because they act like corns and not other types of rat snakes. That rat snakes tend to be a bit more high strung compared to corns. Well, when I lived in Maryland, I believe I caught my fair share of black rat snakes, and for the most part I found them to be extremely mellow animals. Most of them I would catch by using calm and deliberate motions so as to not startle or frighten them, and I could carry them around all day without them getting the least bit upset. I also produced quite a few amelanistic black rat snakes before I decided to specialize in the corn snakes, and although they weren't especially aggressive to handle, they did act differently from corns in feed response as well as breeding. But it was subtle, and I think someone would have to work with them for a while to be able to easily pick this sort of evidence out of the lineup.

Heck, matter of fact, I have caught a good number of gray rat snakes around here, especially picking them out of and around from bird feeders, and the only time any have ever snapped at me was because they thought my hand was the bird they were waiting patiently to appear. I never really did much concerning breeding them, except for a short stint when I lived in Maryland before discovering that baby gray rat snakes just don't sell worth a damn in an area where baby native black rat snakes are plentiful and nearly identical looking.

But now, yellow rat snakes, yes in my experience they can be a handful and are quick to take a nip if you give them a chance. But I did have a huge adult that I pulled out of a palm tree when I was on vacation with my parents as a child. Poor thing was scarred up something terrible, so apparently had a hard life in the wild. He was absolutely puppy dog tame, though, and seemed glad to have finally retired to someplace SAFE from harm.

Speaking of which, if you want to use personality as a trait to determine a hybrid, heck, one of the most notorious examples of a down right snappy corn snake would have to be the Sunkissed line. Not to mention the pattern aberration. I will have to admit that more than once the thought crossed my mind that if someone were to have crossed a Florida king with a corn snake, the Sunkissed would be the likely result. But then again, we come up with the bugaboo of why a new gene in the corn snake would have to have only resulted from that sort of union. In any event, even with the above in mind, I don't think anyone has seriously suggested that the Sunkisseds are hybrids, pretty much bucking the trend with nearly every other genetic trait that has popped up in the corn snakes. So if there is a black and white rule for making this claim of what is a hybrid and what is not, sorry, I just don't see it.

Oh and about hypos in general, yes, after a while, I really considered "hypo" as a four letter word that I used quite often in unpleasant and surprising results gotten from breedings that didn't turn out as I had expected. Too bad my stock didn't go to someone willing to continue my projects when I retired. I'm positive that there were MANY new genetic types there that only needed to be isolated and labelled. But such is life. That stuff is all scattered to the four winds now.
 

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