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Health Issues/Feeding Problems Anything related to general or specific health problems. Issues having to do with feeding problems or tips.

just how fast does it take snakes to get scale rot anyhow?
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:48 AM   #11
Lyreiania
Actually, snakes who are kept singly get scale rot as well. So its rather false to say that had they been in separate cages, this would not have happened. And as far as the event itself, mild scale rot is hardly the end of the world. I think you all are making a mountain from a molehill. All I wondered was how fast does scale rot happen in snakes? My two in separate cages have upset their water dishes. I have spilled their water dishes. Things happen. I keep my cages quite well, and anyone can have an spilled water dish. It does not constitute bad husbandry. It is not abuse. I do not agree with your opinions on this issue and yes, my snakes are mine to house as I choose. They are mine, to abuse if I so choose, as you wrote. But since when is providing a clean, large cage, ample food, and needed medical care abuse? Luckily I have no intention of nor am I abusing them by housing them together in a spacious and clean tank. Abuse would be if I denied them care. I do no such thing.

I do agree a spilled water dish caused the scale rot. As for lowered immune system, no way to know that. Perhaps their shavings had been wet for longer than I realized. Svengali has lived with me since I purchased him in November of 2006. Hes been cohabiting for 6 years? He certainly does not look dead or near dead to me. One of my other snakes was 14 or thereabouts when he died...of complications from an injury, not of scale rot or anything related to cohabitation. So, in my experience, I have never seen cohabitation lead to bad. I know the risks meaning that I see what you have wrote, did my own research online...but my life experience with it is not in line with what I read, and plenty of people cohabit snakes without issue. So, I do what I note for myself...and my animals...to be what I view as best.

Its OK to have differing opinions on a wide range of issues, and BloodyBaroness I thank you for your clarifying words.

Its not, however OK to call something abuse...or "killing my snakes" when its clearly not so. Words such as "abuse" or "killing" should not be words that is tossed about lightly.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 04:10 AM   #12
DragonsDenSerpents
I was always under the impression prolonged and constant stress can contribute to a lower immune system.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 08:45 AM   #13
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyreiania View Post
Actually, snakes who are kept singly get scale rot as well. So its rather false to say that had they been in separate cages, this would not have happened. And as far as the event itself, mild scale rot is hardly the end of the world. I think you all are making a mountain from a molehill. All I wondered was how fast does scale rot happen in snakes? My two in separate cages have upset their water dishes. I have spilled their water dishes. Things happen. I keep my cages quite well, and anyone can have an spilled water dish. It does not constitute bad husbandry. It is not abuse. I do not agree with your opinions on this issue and yes, my snakes are mine to house as I choose. They are mine, to abuse if I so choose, as you wrote. But since when is providing a clean, large cage, ample food, and needed medical care abuse? Luckily I have no intention of nor am I abusing them by housing them together in a spacious and clean tank. Abuse would be if I denied them care. I do no such thing.

I do agree a spilled water dish caused the scale rot. As for lowered immune system, no way to know that. Perhaps their shavings had been wet for longer than I realized. Svengali has lived with me since I purchased him in November of 2006. Hes been cohabiting for 6 years? He certainly does not look dead or near dead to me. One of my other snakes was 14 or thereabouts when he died...of complications from an injury, not of scale rot or anything related to cohabitation. So, in my experience, I have never seen cohabitation lead to bad. I know the risks meaning that I see what you have wrote, did my own research online...but my life experience with it is not in line with what I read, and plenty of people cohabit snakes without issue. So, I do what I note for myself...and my animals...to be what I view as best.

Its OK to have differing opinions on a wide range of issues, and BloodyBaroness I thank you for your clarifying words.

Its not, however OK to call something abuse...or "killing my snakes" when its clearly not so. Words such as "abuse" or "killing" should not be words that is tossed about lightly.
But your cage is not big enough.
What you are putting your snakes through is cruelty.
In nature, when an animal shows distress it is singled out as prey, so snakes are stoic when they are suffering, just like yours
Lowered immune systmes are caused by stress, stress is caused by.....co habbing!
You really are killing your snakes. I really don't care whether my saying that bothers you or not, it is the truth. You say you don't deny them care, but what you are denying them what they really need, solitude. You are denying them a BASIC need, something as important as food and water and shelter. You are denying them what they need to BE snakes, and act as they are supposed to act, and live how they are supposed to live.
On a very basic level, snakes are not meant to live together. In nature, they never see each other except in breeding season.

Imagine if you were locked in a room with someone you couldn't stand. You had to face this person every single day with no way out ever for the rest of your life. You can't eat, go to the bathroom, do anything without bumping into someone you hate. And you can't show it, or you know you will die. You have to hold it in, forever. No way out.
That is what you are doing to your snakes, and it is cruel.

What you are doing is just like saying "I know the risks of letting my baby ride unrestrained in a car. Sure, he could die. But I like doing it this way. He seems happy and doesn't cry from being in the car seat".
You are just as ignorant. Actually, no, you know the risks and you just don't care....
 
Old 03-28-2013, 10:19 AM   #14
Isoldael
Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael
 
Old 03-28-2013, 10:32 AM   #15
Guruofchem
By my calculations, your viv is a bit over 110 gallons, without a lot of height to help extend the footprint vertically (yes, I know they aren't truly arboreal, but space is space). For two large males, this just doesn't seem to be enough space. We all tend to anthropomorphize our reptiles - I'm as guilty as the next person - and we want to think their "emotional" responses are real, but this is just not the case. Your guys aren't better off because they share space; they are better because your basic husbandry is excellent, because you care about and for them. The advice you've been given about separating them is sound, regardless of how it has been stated or received; do not dismiss it because of your emotional response to it. Ultimately the choice is yours, but if it were me in this spot I'd separate them. Either way, good luck to you and the two boys...
 
Old 03-28-2013, 10:38 AM   #16
Nanci
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoldael View Post
Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael
So you just don't care that her snakes are exhibiting ritual fighting? IN THE WILD the defeated male would leave the dominant male's territory. Here, he is forced to stay, and be stressed. The dominant male is stressed, too, by continually having to defend his territory. Stress lowers both snakes' immune systems.

What benefit is there to these two snakes by cohabbing them? NONE.

What benefit is there to these two snakes by providing separate enclosures? EVERYTHING.

It's ridiculous to speculate on what could or could not be causing scale rot when there is a much greater danger to the snakes already present.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 10:46 AM   #17
WestCoast_Redneck
Lyreiania, the one thing I love about this forum is that everyone tries to help the best they can. The advise is ALWAYS there..However, some forget their way is not the only way and advise gets heated. While many disagree with co-habbing (obviously), I genuinely respect this is not the topic requested. I hope your snakes get better soon, and the one who drank a bit of iodine doesn't have any issues My snake always poops in the bathtub, then has a huge drink and scares me. Hey, some believe giving your snake a soak is unnecessary and stressful, and others believe snakes drinking tap water is dangerous: There's many opinions regarding corn snake care, ultimately it's your choice on what you believe is best and sometimes it's a trial and error journey...

I agree with Isoldael- I have never myself dealt with scale rot, however from what I've read, it's best to switch their substrate to paper towel (changing it daily?) and keep their viv extremely clean to avoid bacteria making matters worse. Wishing you the very best xx
 
Old 03-28-2013, 11:12 AM   #18
Isoldael
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci View Post
So you just don't care that her snakes are exhibiting ritual fighting?
Actually, nothing I've read here proves that they are ritually fighting. Mounting each other may be seen as fighting in other species, but if they are actually trying to MATE (which is different) then I don't see that as fighting. I mean, my male corn (who is housed alone) has tried to mount and breed with a piece of wood. Are you saying I should remove this piece of wood because he's ritually fighting over space?

Again, I appreciate that you have a different opinion about cohabbing, but there is no need to force it upon others in a thread that isn't even closely related to cohabbing.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 11:22 AM   #19
Nanci
Stress is related to cohabbing. But that's okay- you can make the choice for your snakes when they can't make it for themselves. They are your animals to....care for.
 
Old 03-28-2013, 11:29 AM   #20
starsevol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoldael View Post
Just to provide a different opinion on the matter - I cohab my snakes. MANY people around the Netherlands cohab their snakes. The stories you hear about cannibalism, females breeding to young and other cohabbing issues are the exceptions, not the rule, and I've yet to come across a case where these issues were caused in a setting where cohabbing was done right (e.g. cannibalism where snakes were fed properly and seperately). I know many people around the world think differently and are very passionate about it because they only read the bad stories. It would be like not housing 2 cats together because you've heard bad stories (I mean, these aren't pack animals in the wild either).

In any case, the OP already made it VERY clear that she is aware of the risks of cohabbing and has made the conscious decision to do so anyway. There is no proof of it causing the snakes any discomfort in this case, so you guys have no reason at all to lecture her. If you believe differently, so be it, but she made it clear that you guys are completely off-topic and she doens't want to turn this in YET ANOTHER cohabbing thread. I know I'm being a hypocrit here as I'm also posting on the matter, but I felt it was necessary to shed some light on the other side of things as well. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it if we could just return to the original topic, scale rot.

If I had anything to say to Lyrei with regards to cohabbing is that it might be a good idea to provide more than 2 hides (at least one per snake per temperature zone, so one in the hot end and one in the cold end). That's it. I don't believe cohabbing has anything to do with the snakes developing scale rot.

As for the scale rot issue - although I've never seen it myself, I've heard stories from my vet friends. All it takes is a few bacteria and a moist environment, and it can develop in only a few days. So far you've taken the proper treatment, although you might want to consider temporarily moving them onto kitchen towel to make sure no further stuff gets in the wounds.

Hope your snakeys get better soon!

~Isoldael
All this post tells me is that animal cruelty is a common practice in the Netherlands...I don't care how many people are "doing it wrong", it is still wrong!
 

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