2 corns in one viv

I have seen reference to one recent study which found that snakes have more social life than has hitherto been thought. I will try and track it down.

it may not be emotional, but i do believe they benefit from each other's company. when an anxious snake can be calmed by another (familiar) snake's presence, it is hard for me to dispell this observation as a fluke.. just because some scientists in a lab say otherwise.

however, i think we know from how many times this topic has come up that we will all never agree on one answer to the "two snakes in one viv" question.

i would like to see the studies mentioned in the past two posts, though.

I found the papers I referred to through a scientific paper database called edina. you have to be a member to get access but I'll see if I can get the abstract copied and post them (I doubt I'll be able to post the whole paper for copyright issues but we'll see)

Well the issue whether snakes "like" company I think will be hard to proove. But I think it is far more important to offer the snake a good habitat. IMHO it is not as bad to keep two snakes in a large viv than one snake in a small box. Take the plastic containers for example. the ones where you can have five or ten "drawers" in a row and a snake in each of them. Talking about animal welfare in that respect is more a point to stress. I think if the viv is large enough having two snakes in it will not be so bad.

@ Rachel

I do however see the point about what can go wrong. Especially if you place a new snake in a viv with already a snake present without a sufficient quarantine.

However if it is prooven that snakes are unable to feel emotional bindings, which I think might be the case, they cannot have emotional dislikes either. So whats the odds?

Acradon

It's interesting to note that Kathy & Bill Love's Corn Snake Manual (our bible!), whilst outlining some of the risks of keeping Corns together, doesn't specifically caution against doing this ("Number of Snakes Per Enclosure" section in the "Basic Caging Requirements" chapter). Instead it advises on how to minimise the risks associated with doing this.

I'm sure if it was that critical a point, then Kathy and Bill would have put some sort of clear statement in the book, to the effect that housing more than one Corn per viv is dangerous. There's no way they'd wish to see keepers exposing their animals to the level of risk that seems to have been identified in this thread.

Is it possible that later editions of the Manual have this? My copy has a publication date of 2000.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20040327/bob8.asp

article about maternal behaviour in vipers and rattlesnakes.

anthropomorphizing, anyone?

"enjoy each other's company?"
"snake calmed by another?"
"curled up together" (lovingly, I'm sure)
"no emotional dislikes, either" (who said emotional?)

People, listen. It certainly isn't on the husbandry "no-no list" up there with never changing substrate, but we ARE talking about reptiles here. Yes many herps have a built in instinct to protect their clutch of eggs, and our observations are most easily put into human terms. Wrongly, in my opinion, but understandable. If two snakes are curled up together, the hide or habitat was what they both sought out. As for the statement that it's better to keep two in a large viv than one in a small box, rubbish. As long as that small box is kept clean, I assure you a cornsnake would "prefer" the small box. If they had water, food and mates come to them in the wild, they'd seldom move.

The way I'm interpreting The Corn Snake Manual, it says that there are risks involved with keeping more than one Corn per viv, but these are acceptable if minimised and it's essentially a matter of choice for the keeper. Views anybody? Is anyone reading that text differently?

To be honest Chip, I'm not really convinced by your statement that a Corn would "prefer" to live in a small box by itself than in a large viv with another Corn. How would you support that? I don't think we have proof either way do we? Can you quote some examples of snakes living solo in small vivs who have thrived and pairs/trios in large vivs that haven't?

David, I agree that some herps are defensive of their eggs, but Corns aren't and I that's really what we're talking about. Let's not muddy the waters here.

the article I posted describes rather more "maternal" behaviour than defending eggs. To my mind it casts at least some doubt on the usual mantra that snakes don't have a limbic system and therefore can't experience any emotions. But there is little evidence either way.

Here is my rationale. I have "known" a wild corn in my Dad's barn that was almost always under the same piece of plywood. Even though I disturbed him many times, unless it was cool, he/she was nearly always there in warm months. Given ample food supply, they tend to be ambush feeders and wait for food to pass them by. Likewise, in a 6 foot vision cage, you will find your corn under the same hide all the time. Exceptions being breeding season or when hungry.
As someone who hunts for them every year, I very, very seldom see them out in daylight crawling around. Things that are red don't live long exposing themselves in the light of day. And they lay low at night if there is a meal in their belly. Look at your viv at night and notice when the snake ventures out of it's hide. See how many days after feeding this is. I think you will draw the same conclusion.
Without question, you theoretically can keep 100 corns healthy in a huge enclosure if you choose to do a lot of work. Disease is a much higher risk, and even if fed separately, the issue of never knowing who regurged, etc. is an issue you will never face housing individually. For that matter a hungry corn would probably eat that regurge and leave the keeper with no evidence. I'm not as adamant about it as many, I just see no benefit to housing together but do see risks. My two cents, not trying to chastize anyone else's husbandry. The whole "is my snake lonely" thing does get to me though!

Clearly this is a passionate subject for many. I've had this debate many times concerning certain species of tropical fish that "appear to be lonely" or "enjoying the company of another." The fact of the matter here is far too many people are willing to take "scientific research" as fact. Let us not forget that this research is often done by a single individual who wrote a report using mostly the exact same methods as the rest of us: observation. The fact that they are experts in their fields undoubtedly offers an advantage with regard to conclusions, but we have seen perfect examples of people who have become experts by experience and observation alone (Kathy Love, for example) without any formal education in that field and to think for a second that every "scientific conclusion" is correct or set in stone violates every purpose for scientific research to begin with.

Often times I see people here spout off phrases or sentences in a factual manner that is just a regurgitation of what someone else on this forum said who they hold in high regard. Don't get me wrong, these forums and so-called "experts" are often very correct in their observations, but with a subject such as this that still remains highly controversial wouldn't it be to the advantage to everyone to keep an open mind here? There is not a clear answer for a very good reason. No scientist or true observer would ever resolve to sit on a single answer. Science and research is an on-going process.

Obviously there are dangers associated here that are real and many of you make good points. However, pointing the bony finger at someone and telling them "you're wrong" (even in not so many words) because they are less experienced or perhaps have a shorter membership here on this site only goes to show your own unwillingness to maintain that same open mind necessary for the survival of science, research, and even the herp hobby.

If other members have been able to keep more than 1 snake in a single container with success and their animals are cared for, it is not up to the rest of us to pass judgement. The fact that so many people, even here on this very forum, have been able to do this with success should be a testament by itself.

well put arson!

I have to agree with you. Although I don't keep my snakes together I'm also not one to jump down someone's throat when they claim to do so. It seems that sometimes that people get a little trigger happy here and are too eager to pass judgement based on one simple question or statement. This forum is supposed to be about discussion and information sharing (am I wrong?). Anyhow, I do think the studies mentioned are interesting and some interesting thoughts have been posted in this thread.

I agree, well said and yes many people (including myself) can be 'trigger happy' when it comes to this subject. I'd like to point out, however, that I am not passing judgement. Especially not dependant on someones experience, or membership status! I am simply answering a newbies question and get frustrated when more experienced herpers are so blaze about housing together. Fine, keep your snakes together if it works for you and you know what you're doing. But DON'T tell a newbie that it's ok to throw corns in together. You need experience, imo with one snake on it's own before you go taking risks of housing together. half the people who ask 'can I keep corns together' don't even know what a regurge is, or even what a viv is!! So do you see my point now? I'm not saying to those of you who have happily kept corns together to separate them immediately. I'm simply giving 'good' advice to newbies that keeping together is not a good idea (for them). Wait until you know a bit more and then, hopefully, you'll make a more informed decision.

this was actually the most civil discussion on the matter that I've seen

And after re-reading the starting post, it seems the thread starter was not only new, but young. Perhaps English isn't Fruitloops native tongue, but I digress.
I own over 25 corns (not including hatchlings) and would never dream of more than an "overnighter" with a breeding pair. For someone with two or three snakes, this would be a more managable situation. Still, I see no upside. Pathogen contact would be my biggest concern, inaccurate record keeping second.
When hunting corns or other Pantherophis, you seldom find two together, even in perfect conditions. You're just as likely to find a mouse or big kingsnake under the same log or tin. No one can make an argument that they are social animals, or that they suffer without socialization or contact. I believe they would be least stressed (or "happiest") to never be handled, for that matter. But such defeats the purpose of keeping docile species!
I'll wrap up by saying that it would be very irresponsible of those of us who are "established" on the forums to give a "thumbs up" to anyone new to the hobby on the subject of housing together. I think we'd all like to see others have success keeping snakes, and any advice that will likely facilitate that is the correct advice to give.

Thanks Chip, you put my thoughts alot more eloquently! Lol

as they would say in the slums of America:

Jus keepin' it real, Rach.

Perhaps Kathy and Bill will be including that advice in the next edition of The Corn Snake Manual then?

It's good to see everyone narrow down their advice to what it really is: an informed decision from an experienced person. I just absolutely HATE to hear anyone state anything factually with no room for re-evaluation...it's just bad science. We also have to leave room for how captive-bred species behavior changes when kept in captivity. Nobody can deny that their senses are not what they are in the wild. We can only assume that their behavior can change as well. You'd be surprised what a captive animal will do when it realizes it will never have to run for its life.

I don't think anyone here is condoning keeping two corns in one viv, but nobody should be crucified for it.

Sorry Arson, I condone it in principal and under normal circumstances, but not as an absolute*; I probably didn't express myself clearly enough. Glad to know that my thirteen years of success with keeping pairs and trios together will at least be taken into account, even though ultimately we disagree on the point.

Thanks for an informative and valuable debate, which I hope has been helpful to all.

*Common sense should be applied at all times. If an animal is sick, you should separate it. If it's inherently stressed by sharing, then it should be kept solo. Or does that take us back to the start of the discussion?

Or does that take us back to the start of the discussion?

Ha ha! Good ending sentence, I was preparing to type, "Here we go again... How do you 'know' they're stressed and by the time you see visible signs of (etc. ad nauseum)"
:argue:
Best wishes to you all, no matter how you keep your specimens.:cheers: