Palmetto question

It is my understanding that the first Palmetto was just discovered one day in someone's yard. Aside from the distinctive stark white ground and confetti sprinkles, the feature I find most striking about this morph is the light grey iris.

This eye and the quality of the bright white, remind me a LOT of leucistic rat snakes. Now, I know that cornsnakes are ratsnakes, but the classification Pantheropis gutta (spell?) is specific to corns, and the Palmetto is marketed as a corn. Since no other cornsnake morphs look at all like the Palmetto, I am curious if that morph isn't actually a hybrid (or even a pure ratsnake?).

Does anyone have more info on this question?

Thanks.

Stripes don't look like any other corn snake morph. Nor do Lavenders. Nor do amels.

A leucistic morph, of which the palmetto is one, is going to have light colored eyes like that. You see it in the texas rat leucistics and the black rat leucistics so it's only natural that a corn snake would have the same characteristic.

Originally Posted by Shiari

Stripes don't look like any other corn snake morph. Nor do Lavenders. Nor do amels.

A leucistic morph, of which the palmetto is one, is going to have light colored eyes like that. You see it in the texas rat leucistics and the black rat leucistics so it's only natural that a corn snake would have the same characteristic.

Agreed. Amel rattlesnakes and cobras might be the only morphs that someone out there doesn't call a hybrid. The same recessive (and dominant, co-dom, etc.) genes pop up in vastly unrelated species. This black rat was found in the mountains not too far from here:

I would bet my store that if this animal was bred to a palmetto, it would produce "palmetto" hybrids. (and if my friend can replicate it, we'll send a male to Don to test that theory on)

In the end, we can only decide with our eyes, and if we trust the people who produced an animal (or not). And terms like "hybrid" are loose to begin with. Just staying on the topic of gray rats, weren't they a subspecies of corn not long ago? I recall Hobart's "Snakes as Pets" had the gray rat as Elaphe guttata spiloides and "red rats" as Elaphe guttata guttata at the time of print, meaning the animals were subspecies of the same species. So with one taxonomic change, rootbeers suddenly became hybrids? For me, a getula king and a corn are 100% different species of snake. A corn and a gray rat? Not so sure. I don't think I could pick them out of a lineup in a black and white photo with much certainty. But regardless of how strict your parameters are, there is no way to know what genes are in captive populations. For that matter, I've caught a lot of coastal corns with faint yellow rat stripes and more slender bodies. It even happens in nature. You could make an argument that there is no such thing as a corn snake, if your standards were strict enough.

I've wondered that myself. I also did a lot of research on it. There are some old threads, I think on this forum actually, that discuss that very question. In the end, it was decided that it was a corn snake. Don at SMR had them for a long time. Not long ago he sold them all to another breeder.
I am very new and inexperienced to corn snakes...or any other snake for that matter. Because the palmetto resembled the leucistic rat snake so much, I started researching in hopes that is what they were because, I cannot afford the price tag of one. You should research, there is a lot of interesting history to be found. I also found an old photo of a 'rat snake' that looked just like a palmetto corn but I could not verify it. I bet Don would give you some history on them if you give him a ring...after the holidays.

if you want something that looks like a Palmetto..... try contacting Rob Zerkle and maybe get one of his calico beauty snakes https://www.facebook.com/62234943448...type=3&theater

Nancyg

Originally Posted by nancyg

if you want something that looks like a Palmetto..... try contacting Rob Zerkle and maybe get one of his calico beauty snakes https://www.facebook.com/62234943448...type=3&theater

Nancyg

The calico beauty looks something like a Palmetto but they sure don't have the disposition of one !!! LOL........

I love my old world rats including my beauties but I don't take them for granted when cleaning or feeding them. I don't take my eyes off of them when their tubs are open and even more disturbing is they don't take their eyes off of me!!!

I'm not actually interested in getting one, but it sure is eye catching. I still think it stands out oddly compared to the range of other morphs.

I did some more digging, and it turns out that Soderberg has entertained the question himself. He seems to think that the circumstances of its original find settles the issue. Not sure I would agree with that on its own, but unless a contradictory story turns up, I'm willing to take it at face value.

On further inspection, the Palmetto does seem to have more of a corn shaped head, and a softer "expression" than I've seen in the rats. It lacks the defined brow ridge that more rats have. (For example, the Leucistic ratsnake named Seraf that is featured in a blog, something close to the name of, All Tail No Legs.) Furthermore, I haven't heard anyone say the temperament of the Palmettos is feisty, and based on some videos where the Palmettos are handled (MuscleSerpents Univ. has one), they have the same mellow layed back personality in-hand.

I suppose a DNA test would solve the question definitively. Just curious, that's all.

Nancyg, that Calico Beautysnake is flat out gorgeous!

Don will talk with you. He is a really nice person. I also remember reading about a scale count on the head. I personally didn't care what is what, I just wanted one

and Wow on that Chinese Beauty.

Travis Whisler is the one who picked up the project so Don would have more time to work on his new book. According to the interview on Corn on the Pod episode 10, he used to work in Don's pet shop way back when as a teenager. Thus far my experience with him has been excellent.

I'm pretty well convinced they're pure corns. Folks have been looking for a leucistic corn for a while now, so it was bound to pop up eventually. At least one other colubrid species has a leucistic form that has some random specks of color, and the visual difference between hets and normals (lightened coloration, sometimes with a slight silver cast on the lower anterior sides) is comparable to other leucistic ratsnakes.

Originally Posted by nancyg

if you want something that looks like a Palmetto..... try contacting Rob Zerkle and maybe get one of his calico beauty snakes https://www.facebook.com/62234943448...type=3&theater

Nancyg

The Zerkle's are great. Amy was one of the first people I talked to about corn snakes at the Cin City show. Before I learned about cayenne fires, I was looking for a striped blood, and she told me bloodreds were all terrible feeders and they all faded to dark ugly colors in adulthood. They work with so many different snakes, it sometimes makes me wonder just how knowledgeable they are on any given one. More than once I've questioned their husbandry on some lesser-kept species. But damn if they aren't the nicest folks you'll meet at the show.

Usually I just ask don and send him the url to threads like this, but you can figure this out.