"Milk Snake Phase"? Miami? (lots of pics)

Hello~ looking for some opinions. I purchased this lovely "Milk Snake Phase" male back in 01' from Serpenco (Thanks Rich!) before that name was phased out~

I tend to refer to him as a "Miami" because his saddles do not wrap all the way and the name Milk Snake Phase seems to be out of use now.

Last year I bred him to this Amel (Unfortunatly the female Milk Snake Phase I purchased died early on)


And I got what I believed were "Normals" and Amels.


I sold off most of the clutch but held back 0.2 amels and 0.2 normals to see how they turned out~ here are some pics of them this week~




So what do you think? Would you call the "Normals" miami's? And what about the Amel? She has quite a bit of orange in her background~ but it's washed out~ I'm thinking of breeding her back to my original male (top pic) and try for a line of Candy canes~ what do you think?

If you got this far~ Thanks for looking any opinions!

The normals do have a Miami look to them. And the father is a Milksnake phase (a pretty one too!), so I guess you could call them Miami/Milksnake Phases.

As to the baby amel. If you're going for a line of candycanes, I think you'd have better results breeding her to another amel that is exhibiting the look you want to emphasize.

Good luck and thanks for sharing.

Just a question - would it be wise to breed her with her father?

Everything I have read suggests that this could lead to genetic mutations somewhere down the line that you don't want.

Thanks for the compliment and opinions Edmund (I think the male is a real looker too!)

Doric~ Thats moral debate I'm sure has been covered on this web site (I saw it somewhere yesterday as a matter of fact)~ Line breeding (In-breeding) can be controversal~ Obviously I'm okay with it. If you own any "Morphs" (amel~snow~anery~ any of them) then your okay with it as well~ (Or at least you've supported it) you just didn't realize you were okay with it before you paid someone for that snake.

I'm not trying to debate the question - as a new keeper I was merely asking the question!

Yes I know that my amel is an in-breed but hopefully not a recent inbreed.

I have read what Bill and Kathy Love have written on the subject in their book 'The Corn Snake Manual' and it is because of this that I am asking the question

What I am looking at is eventually breeding from my snakes and my amel is a US import so hopefully I will not come across some of her siblings.

I am not trying to condemn anyone for their choice of breeding techniques - you know your snakes better than I do.

And by the way those are some lovely looking snakes you have there.

Doric~ I probably should have found a more "PC" way to say than than I did. No offense intended~ If you don't agree with Line breeding that's completely your business~ Your right there are a lot of potential Cons to it~ but there are also a lot of pontential Pros.

We are posting at the same time here~ LOL!

Peace friend~ to each his/her own

Doric,

Yes all amelanistic snakes descended from that first specimen, but so did man. The number off blood lines out there is countless. Over the years, long time hobbyists and breeders like Rich and Kathy have added in new wild caught blood thus diluting the influence of inbreeding. Unlike fancy dogs, you can take a snake cross in unrelated blood and return to a fancy product in only two generations.

I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

JM ), is your adult milksnake phase's ground color more tan or silver? In the pic it looks kinda tan, but photos aren't always accurate. Just curious because I have a yearling female whose ground color seems to be shifting from silver to tan. If it turns out like your's, I'll still be happy.

I personally would call them normals. They just don't show enough Milksnake Phase influence to be called such. These decisions are so touchy because everyone has their own opinion as to what makes up a "good" specimen. This is always going to be the case with a selectively bred traits. You don't get an all or nothing like a simple recessive. At what point does a Candy Cane have too much ground color to be called a Candy Cane, how thick do the borders have to be to make a good Okeetee "color phase"? I personally have a hard time getting 100% Milksnake Phase hatchlings even with both parents are super examples. In fact I sold off about half of my Milks Mots this year in wholesale lots labled normals. I do the same with Candy Canes and Miamis, even if both parents are spectacular, that doesn't always mean thier offspring will be sold as Candy Canes and Miamis. If they don't make the cut, and a lot of times they don't, I'll sell them as Amels and Normals. That way you run less risk of disappointing valuable customers.

I have to agree with Carol. I don't have any experience with the Milk Snake Phase so I can't comment on that. I, however, have allot of experience with Miamis. I bred allot of them for a long time and they are probably my favorite cultivar. To me your 2 yearlings have too much yellow/tan and not enough silver in their backgrounds to be called Miamis. That is just me though. Carol also makes a good point in not selling the Mediocre one that may be or may not be whatever color just to get a little more for it. If you do in the long run you will have some very unhappy customers. But since Carol is so picky I know if I buy a Miami hatchling from her (which I have 4 Miamis from her) that it will be a good, most likely very good, Miami and I won't have to worry about it looking like a normal as an adult.

Just my $0.03
Jeff C.

Don't worry~ I'm not planning on selling any of those girls just yet~ just looking for some opinions on them. I did sell the rest of the clutch as "Normals" which I was a bit concerned over as I would expect more red out of a "Normal" than those girls have developed. I'm a little unclear on exactly what makes for a "Milk Snake phase" which is why I tend to call the original male a "Miami" instead.

I put quite a lot of effort into insuring you could see the yellowing/tanning near the heads on those girls~ suprisingly the camera seems to want to make them look better than they are! The amount of yellow shown in those pics is very representative though (Had to take about a dozen pics before I got ones that didn't bleed out the yellow and make it also look silver).

I'm still not sure just "Normal" is the right name for those girls without more red in them~ are you sure I wouldn't be better off calling them poorly colored Miami's? Or greyish Normals??

Opinions welcome!
Thanks!
~ the poster who asked about the original male~ he has some yellow up near his head but for the most part he is a uniform grey!

JM :o) said:

Doric~ I probably should have found a more "PC" way to say than than I did. No offense intended~ If you don't agree with Line breeding that's completely your business~ Your right there are a lot of potential Cons to it~ but there are also a lot of pontential Pros.

Click to expand...

No problem - no offence taken :wavey:

CAV said:

Doric,

Yes all amelanistic snakes descended from that first specimen, but so did man. The number off blood lines out there is countless. Over the years, long time hobbyists and breeders like Rich and Kathy have added in new wild caught blood thus diluting the influence of inbreeding. Unlike fancy dogs, you can take a snake cross in unrelated blood and return to a fancy product in only two generations.

I really don't think you have anything to worry about.

Click to expand...

Thanks - as I have said I am new to snake keeping and I am only trying to put my snakes first based om the information that I have available at the time. Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.