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Miscellaneous Corn Snake Discussions This is a "none of the above" forum. All posts should still be related to cornsnakes in one form or another, but some slight off topic posting is fine.

View Poll Results: Culling hatchlings:
is a responsible thing to do when they are deformed/weak and have no chance of a decent life 156 73.58%
1 + when they are 'side products' and end up in pet shops, overflowing the market 5 2.36%
1 + when hybrid hatchlings can be mistaken for pure, threatening the mass market with their genes 9 4.25%
1 + 2 + 3 26 12.26%
is ok when..... (see my post) 2 0.94%
is never a good thing to do, even a deformed/week hatchling should only die by its defect 14 6.60%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Culling 'side product' hatchlings
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Old 04-09-2007, 01:51 AM   #41
tyflier
Yea...I probably could have chosen a better word...
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:33 AM   #42
jenkva
I have chosen the first option (is a responsible thing to do when they are deformed/weak and have no chance of a decent life) but as most of my post regarding discussions, there is a "but".

I agree with you tyflier that the (quote) "sickly, deformed, chronically pained" should not be put through the ordeal of dying a long, possibly painful death and be assisted to have a short/quick/painfree death.

However, the non feeders should be given a chance. Just look at what Diamondlil did with Lil and Skooter! They ended up eating by themselves.
Eventhough we are still wainting on further update on Skooter as she is back home now, Lil is now a big healthy snake. See Diamondlil's thread (the saga continues........) about them both, it might change someones mind about just thinking "oh well, he/she is not eating, let's just end it", no no no, that is not fair and when you are and animal owner, you have the obligation to do your best by your animal, snake or no snake.

I was horrified by what I read in Vinman's thread (Sunkissed Jungle Corns), come on, would you also kill a baby/child (I know it is an extreme comparison) if he/she did not agree with the way he/she should look??

Susan, I am wondering, if you do not have time to take care of 200/250 hatchling, why do you breed so many snakes? Can't you just breed specific ones to have less and lessen your work loads therefore avoid culling some which are "too many"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan
You have made some good points, but how can we, as a species, respect other species when we don't even respect our own? China had, and may even still have, a one child rule. Should a family produce more than one child, it would be killed. And many families would kill even the first child if it happened to be a female, as a male child was preferred. How's that for culling!
This used to be true but now parents need to pay heavy tax for the right to have a second child

I am friend with Blutengel and we already do not agree with co-hab but we have agreed to disagreed. Should she go with the "selective look" culling, I would also agree to disagreed but would discuss it with her to see if I could understand "why" but then would not want to hear about it because my heart would sink. It is indeed (like you said Susan) her personal business and I should not judge her by our difference of view points.

Anyway, we are all individuals and all have our own points of view which is what makes us different and if we were all the same the world would be a boring place.

Right, I'll stop rambling and get on with my day, I hope all of you are having a nice Eater week end
 
Old 04-09-2007, 06:52 AM   #43
Susan
Quote:
Originally Posted by jenkva
Susan, I am wondering, if you do not have time to take care of 200/250 hatchling, why do you breed so many snakes? Can't you just breed specific ones to have less and lessen your work loads therefore avoid culling some which are "too many"?
Let me state this yet a third (or is it a fourth) time...I used my own situation as a EXAMPLE, and nowhere in that example did I state that I have actually done that kind of culling.
I HAVE NEVER CULLED ANY OF MY HATCHLINGS DO TO THEIR NUMBER!
It is an option for me that I could use, and I am not against anyone, including myself, using it. To date, I have only culled deformed hatchlings and problem feeders.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 07:13 AM   #44
jenkva
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susan
Let me state this yet a third (or is it a fourth) time...I used my own situation as a EXAMPLE, and nowhere in that example did I state that I have actually done that kind of culling.
I HAVE NEVER CULLED ANY OF MY HATCHLINGS DO TO THEIR NUMBER!
It is an option for me that I could use, and I am not against anyone, including myself, using it. To date, I have only culled deformed hatchlings and problem feeders.
Susan, sorry if I did not express myself properly. You did mentioned that it would be an option due to lack of time, hence my question. Please do not take it as an attack which it wasn't. You said it was an option were you would not have any problem with, I was just curious, that is all.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 07:21 AM   #45
SnakeAround
Susan, to me saying that you would cull because of numbers, is the same as actually have done it, when it comes to discussing it. Why do you think there is a difference? You think you might chance your mind when the situation occurs in which you say you would cull because of numbers?

Further, on feeding the hatchlings of to other animals, in snake business that is used as an excuse. Though it is a good point that they are not wasted and others thrive on them, i'm pretty sure the breeders feeding off excess hatchlings, would not breed these snakes to feed their kings or lizards only. Probably they would not even keep these waste bin animals....

On snakes eating animals; that is a necessary to keep them alive. If you take care well of the feeder animals, you are not in any way disrespecting nature IMO. I assume any breeder would feed their snakes tofu it that would work as well.

Breeding new and more beautiful snakes, does not add any quality to the species itself, no it is the opposite; inbreeding is part of breeding new morphs and more beautiful lines, which does not benefit snakes at all. Breeding with only healthy snakes, does add to the quality of snake population.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 07:34 AM   #46
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell
I agree with Susan totally, you can't guarantee they will have a good quality life! I doubt even HALF the babies I've sold over the years are still alive. The way things seem to go locally, I'm thinking that number is closer to 75 percent! Why? escapes, ignorance, lack of skill, and misjudgements in caring for even well started corns. I got a PM recently from someone who bought four well started corns from me and she told me in so many words that the last one recently died, and she doesn't really know why. And that it had sticky fluid coming from it's mouth when found dead...

So, now all four babies are dead before I hear of this... Kathy's manuals sit collecting dust in pet chains everywhere cause people won't pick up the book, read it, and APPLY it!!!!

I was furious after I got this PM. Why did I bother sending these poor jewels to their torturous death? I'm better not ever knowing what happens to my babies by selling to my wholesaler friend who then sells to pet stores. Hear no evil...

I cull heavily when I breed snakes. If they won't eat after everyone else is on meal four. They are put down. If a baby eats a few meals and gets into this skip a few, eat a few, fall behind the rest...they get put down. I just won't deal with poor doers in my bunch. I also check for any kink of any kind possible, and recently, make sure both eyes look normal. If anything is out of whack there, they get put down. There are literally tons of just fine corns out there, I don't need to add my deformed stuff into the mix!

A post made somewhere else by Kathy Love pretty much summed it up for me. We are a fuzzy Disneyland fairy tale belief, so terribly removed from the real world... Yes, respect life guys, but there is a cold harsh undertow that so many seem so far removed from... I mean, it's to the point if my dog got treated the same as I am at work, it would be called abuse and someone would spend time in jail!

I'll place human life over animal life any time. Why? Cause that's my value despite my disgust with the general populace! Death is as much a part of life more than too many people realize. This just reeks more of the Peta theme the more you try to, oh we shouldn't just kill things... It's what they've been preaching for years!

So I voted for the first three. If I feel there is something off about a hatchling or older corn, I'll put them down. If I'm producing a TON of normals, and know that my wholesaler can't use so many, I'll only keep what I consider the nicest normals. That's been done before.

Maybe I hold the unpopular view, but then, that's somehow never bothered me...
But if you think it is disrespectfull to cull and hate the fact that your animals end up dying, why not find a system of breeding what you want without producing tons of excess hatchlings? Is it because that would be more expensive becaue you have to buy homozygous animals, or would you not be able to breed as much morphs as you want? Or....? You are not obliged to breed snakes you know...

I do not like the idea of snakes ending up in pet stores, that is why I do not breed my bairdi to my yellow ratsnake. I would never be able to sell the hatchlings all to people who appreciate them and with enough kwowledge to take care of them properly. Would it be (more) respectfull to nature to breed these snakes, cull of most of the baby's and then keep 1 or 2 just because I want to?

For the record; I do value life of people much higher then the life of animals, I would cull thousands of corns to save a human life, but that is not the discussion here. The issue is, that I think we are intelligent enough to find a way to enjoy our breeding hobby without having to cull healthy animals, but somehow it happens.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 09:54 AM   #47
Roy Munson
This has been a great discussion. I'm siding with those who feel that culling is completely at the discretion of the individual. Susan, Charlene, and Russell have already elaborated on the points I would make, so I don't have much to add.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 09:59 AM   #48
SnakeAround
I'm also very happy to see how the discussion is goign so far, all being polite and such. I also am happy with the poll answers so far, but that is of course because of my opinion. I hope many others will vote at least!
 
Old 04-09-2007, 10:19 AM   #49
Donna
I'm not a breeder, but I do understand the need for culling. But has anyone thought about the owners of these snakes. Not all of us have the time like Dimondlil to get their snakes to eat nor do we have the experience. How many new snake owners have gotten a poor feeder and it did die regardless of what was done. I was one of those owners 4 years ago she ate but was unhealthy to begin with.

It took me 4 years to pick up another snake, and to purchase. Others never do. I really wish my first had been healthy. It looked healthy but what was comming out the other end was not. I only know that now because I own a healthy snake. I wish the first would have been culled and not saved to make the almighty buck, at my and Maxine's expense.

Thereare many more breeders on this site than there were 4-5 years ago, and so many more snakes being breed. I feel culling more vigorously for feeding responses and any thing that is off is fine. Those being feed to other snakes great, no waste. Mice are breed just to be used for food for snakes, we don't see anything wrong with this, after all our snakes need to eat.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 10:44 AM   #50
chausies
I agree Donna. I feel that a poor feeding response could easily be labeled a defect, after all, we don't know what causes poor/non-feeders to begin with. We know that they occur in the wild, and these snakes are used to sustain other animals (possibly siblings). This natural "defect" has a purpose - and this is why snakes have clutches. Not all babies are supposed to survive. When we force them to live, we only perpetuate whatever problems that snake had to begin with and we pass these problems on to future owners to deal with. Some snakes get past the poor-feeding stage just fine and pose no problems to the new owners after a period of time, but how do we prevent those snakes from being bred? An obviously deformed snake is less likely to be bred than an internally defective snake, but a snake that is defective internally is no more viable than a snake with clearly visible anomalies. Culling is not the easiest choice to make, but in these cases it is the most responsible if our goal is to better future generations and eventually weed out harmful genes from our population.
 

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