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Miscellaneous Corn Snake Discussions This is a "none of the above" forum. All posts should still be related to cornsnakes in one form or another, but some slight off topic posting is fine.

View Poll Results: Culling hatchlings:
is a responsible thing to do when they are deformed/weak and have no chance of a decent life 156 73.58%
1 + when they are 'side products' and end up in pet shops, overflowing the market 5 2.36%
1 + when hybrid hatchlings can be mistaken for pure, threatening the mass market with their genes 9 4.25%
1 + 2 + 3 26 12.26%
is ok when..... (see my post) 2 0.94%
is never a good thing to do, even a deformed/week hatchling should only die by its defect 14 6.60%
Voters: 212. You may not vote on this poll

Culling 'side product' hatchlings
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Old 04-09-2007, 04:18 PM   #71
SnakeAround
I cannot explain it any clearer then I did IMO... feeding off side project hatchlings to other animals is an excuse to make culling them for no good reason (IMO), look better. Feeding mice too snakes or breeding snakes to feed kings is at least to fullfill a natural need.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:19 PM   #72
tyflier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutengel
I do see the thin line, but in case of feeding off hatchling snakes too others animals (which are often especially kept for that purpose) it is used as an excuse to make culling the animals look less 'bad'.

In other breeding business, feeding off side product animals is not possible, so they get wasted and people cannot use the 'excuse' that they feed other animals. I do think that breeders using this excuse in snake business, would start wasting side products instead of saying; 'Hey the do not feed other animals so they have no use and out of respect for nature I stop producing these side products.' when there was no possibility to feed them off.

Further, feeding off the hatchlings also prevents the breeders from having to manually kill them personally. I do think that is another welcome side effect of being able to feed them off; you look better and you do not have to kill them personally. If you feed them to animals, at least be honest and admit is is for your own advantage and not to respect nature. Probably some breeders do so but I somehow think others do not.
I must be misunderstanding something, because I am becoming more and more confused by your posts, Blutengel. I mean no disrespect in any way, I'm just searching for clarification...

It seems to me, that in your opinion(and again, I could be completely misunderstanding your posts), breeding "for food" is somehow different than breeding towards another specific outcome and using "by-products" for food. It seems to me that in order to breed ANY animal, there will ALWAYS be "by-product"...unhealthy, non-feeders, too small, "wrong" coloration, poor physical quality...the list goes on and on. But regardless of which species of animal one chooses to breed, as well the reason for the initial breeding, there will ALWAYS be offspring that do not meed the breeder's standards of "acceptable".

Regardless of what standards a breeder chooses to use, and also regardless of the intent behind the breeding, I do not see a difference bewteen culling practices from one "intent" to the other.

If I breed for a specific morph, and cull any offspring that do not meet my requirements for sale(and again, I will refrain from stating any standards to avoid confusing the issue), that practice should be no less "acceptable" than breeding entire litters or clutches specifically for feeding purposes. In fact...I see LESS respect for the animals as a viable lifesource when the only purpose behind the creation of these animals is as a foodsource.

Here's an example--I breed mice strictly for feeding purposes. I feed them, I water them, I provide them with a safe and comfortable habitat, and basically give them every need they could have in exchange for the lives of their babies. Is this a fair trade? In my eyes, yes. But I bet the mice would disagree. The adults look at me "funny", everytime I reach in and grab some babies. Everytime my hand enters their caging, the first thing they do is run over and inspect their "children", to make sure they are all still there, and all still healthy...which most of the time they are not. So, HOW does this show more respect for the lives of those mice? I'm really confused by this, because, ultimately, I don't care about my mice beyond the fact that they need to be healthy and clean in order to be suitable feeders. That may sound cold and harsh, but it is a reality. I don't particularly like mice. They are merely a means to an end in my house. Is that really more acceptable in your eyes?

Here's the converse example--I LOVE my snakes. I take special care to ensure that not only are their daily needs fulfilled(food, water, shelter), but also that needs are satisfied in such a way as to promote as natural an environment as possible inculding pretty decorations, excess ground coverage for security, multiple hides, oversized enclosures, and enough stimulation to keep them active and curious. When they reach full maturity, I will do everything I can to provide for them a natural seasonal cycle, ovulation and spermatazoa creation opportunities, breeding opportunities, and the chance to pass on their genes to their offspring and continue the cycle of life. These snakes have a purpose FAR beyond that of being born solely to die. Their purpose is to bring happiness and beauty to an individual seeking it out. IF offspring from these pairings need to be culled for any reason(I won't mention acceptable or not, again, to avoid confusing the issue), shouldn't I feel MORE justified in knowing that I provided the best possible life from beginning to end for those creatures, and that their death was NOT their purpose, only a necessary culmination of bad coincidence?

I am only confused because I see FAR more respect being given to animals that are bred for possible sale than for animals that are bred purely as foodsources. When breeding an animal AS a foodsource, minimal investment is provided to account for maximum benefit. When breeding an animal for sale or keeping, MAXIMUM investment is given to ENSURE maximum benefit. It just somehow seems that your theories of "respect for the animals" is reversed from what it is in MY mind.

Perhaps you could clarify?

I also don't understand your claim of using "feeding of culled offspring" as an excuse. I don't believe it is an excuse for breeders to feel less guilty. I think it is an end to a necessary situation. I don't think anyone here breeds corns specifically as a foodsource. However, I DO believe that many of us that find ourselves in a situation where a hatchling needs to be euthanized would much rather put that "meat" to good use, rather than tossing it in the dumpster and wasting it. It's not an excuse to kill...it is a viable option for hatchlings that will be killed whether they are fed or tossed in the bin...
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:21 PM   #73
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by kathylove
I just don't get the distinction either. I think it is just a human emotional response to getting attached to pets, but not to food animals. But I am not entirely sure I am exactly getting it either.

I hate to see animals die for no reason with no good accomplished (such as dead shelter animals just thrown away). But I don't understand why it is a worse thing to overproduce some pet corns and feed the ones you don't like to a king (whether you feed it live or euthanize it first), than it is to raise them for food in the first place and feed or euthanize and then feed all of them off?

What about raising Burmese pythons for Asian restaurants in which people like to eat snake (or finding them in the Everglades and eating them)? I am not really aware of people specifically raising snakes for food, but that would be a possibility - good or bad? Better than eating cows, or worse?

I would not be interested in that kind of business (raising reptiles for food) because I like reptiles and would not enjoy doing it. But I see nothing inherently bad or immoral in it, since we do the exact same thing with other species. I am not a vegetarian, and consume other species all the time.

I am just not getting the distinction between whether the animal (whatever species) was conceived with the idea of it becoming a pet or conceived with the idea of it being eventually slaughtered for food. The end result is the same.
Breeding snakes to be eaten is fine with me, but do not use other animals as a living waste bin to make culling hatchlings look better so you can breed on as you like.... maybe this is put a little harsh but clearer to understand...
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:24 PM   #74
SnakeAround
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyflier
I must be misunderstanding something, because I am becoming more and more confused by your posts, Blutengel. I mean no disrespect in any way, I'm just searching for clarification...

It seems to me, that in your opinion(and again, I could be completely misunderstanding your posts), breeding "for food" is somehow different than breeding towards another specific outcome and using "by-products" for food. It seems to me that in order to breed ANY animal, there will ALWAYS be "by-product"...unhealthy, non-feeders, too small, "wrong" coloration, poor physical quality...the list goes on and on. But regardless of which species of animal one chooses to breed, as well the reason for the initial breeding, there will ALWAYS be offspring that do not meed the breeder's standards of "acceptable".

Regardless of what standards a breeder chooses to use, and also regardless of the intent behind the breeding, I do not see a difference bewteen culling practices from one "intent" to the other.

If I breed for a specific morph, and cull any offspring that do not meet my requirements for sale(and again, I will refrain from stating any standards to avoid confusing the issue), that practice should be no less "acceptable" than breeding entire litters or clutches specifically for feeding purposes. In fact...I see LESS respect for the animals as a viable lifesource when the only purpose behind the creation of these animals is as a foodsource.

Here's an example--I breed mice strictly for feeding purposes. I feed them, I water them, I provide them with a safe and comfortable habitat, and basically give them every need they could have in exchange for the lives of their babies. Is this a fair trade? In my eyes, yes. But I bet the mice would disagree. The adults look at me "funny", everytime I reach in and grab some babies. Everytime my hand enters their caging, the first thing they do is run over and inspect their "children", to make sure they are all still there, and all still healthy...which most of the time they are not. So, HOW does this show more respect for the lives of those mice? I'm really confused by this, because, ultimately, I don't care about my mice beyond the fact that they need to be healthy and clean in order to be suitable feeders. That may sound cold and harsh, but it is a reality. I don't particularly like mice. They are merely a means to an end in my house. Is that really more acceptable in your eyes?

Here's the converse example--I LOVE my snakes. I take special care to ensure that not only are their daily needs fulfilled(food, water, shelter), but also that needs are satisfied in such a way as to promote as natural an environment as possible inculding pretty decorations, excess ground coverage for security, multiple hides, oversized enclosures, and enough stimulation to keep them active and curious. When they reach full maturity, I will do everything I can to provide for them a natural seasonal cycle, ovulation and spermatazoa creation opportunities, breeding opportunities, and the chance to pass on their genes to their offspring and continue the cycle of life. These snakes have a purpose FAR beyond that of being born solely to die. Their purpose is to bring happiness and beauty to an individual seeking it out. IF offspring from these pairings need to be culled for any reason(I won't mention acceptable or not, again, to avoid confusing the issue), shouldn't I feel MORE justified in knowing that I provided the best possible life from beginning to end for those creatures, and that their death was NOT their purpose, only a necessary culmination of bad coincidence?

I am only confused because I see FAR more respect being given to animals that are bred for possible sale than for animals that are bred purely as foodsources. When breeding an animal AS a foodsource, minimal investment is provided to account for maximum benefit. When breeding an animal for sale or keeping, MAXIMUM investment is given to ENSURE maximum benefit. It just somehow seems that your theories of "respect for the animals" is reversed from what it is in MY mind.

Perhaps you could clarify?

I also don't understand your claim of using "feeding of culled offspring" as an excuse. I don't believe it is an excuse for breeders to feel less guilty. I think it is an end to a necessary situation. I don't think anyone here breeds corns specifically as a foodsource. However, I DO believe that many of us that find ourselves in a situation where a hatchling needs to be euthanized would much rather put that "meat" to good use, rather than tossing it in the dumpster and wasting it. It's not an excuse to kill...it is a viable option for hatchlings that will be killed whether they are fed or tossed in the bin...
But people do say: 'Hey, the feed my lizards' as an excuse in a discussion....
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:32 PM   #75
tyflier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutengel
But people do say: 'Hey, the feed my lizards' as an excuse in a discussion....
But it is NOT an excuse to simply kill the offspring.

The simple fact is...if offspring from a clutch are to be euthanized, so be it. The only other decision to be made is what to do with the body when the task is complete.

It is NOT a matter of saying, "OK, I feel like killing some baby snakes today. Hmmm....let me see who needs to eat so I have a good excuse to kill it..." That is clearly NOT the situation.

The situation is, rather, this--"SHOOT!! These snakes are NOT suitable for sale as pets or breeders. What am I going to dow ith them? They need to be euthanized, because I simply cannot sell them. Well...they need to die anyhow, I might as well feed them to _________"

Conversely, in my situation of breeding mice PURELY as a foodsource, my thought process is this--"OK...how many mice do I need to keep alive to produce enough babies to feed my snakes? How many mice can I kill from each litter and freeze to ensure that I have enough of the appropriately sized food items on hand, and how many do I need to let grow to the next stage of food, so I have some for when the time comes?"

The ONLY reason to keep the mice alive AT ALL is to provide more babies, and to reach the specific size I need to be a good food source. Where is the respect in that?
 
Old 04-09-2007, 04:44 PM   #76
SnakeAround
I do think feeding them off is better then wasting them of course but do not try to make yourself look better in a discusiin, saying that you do feed them to other animals... you are still producing redundant animals only for the purpose of breeding the snake you lie, not to keep other animals alive. In ay other breeding business this fact would not be 'covered' by feeding them to other animals...

Raising mice to feed snakes, to me is a what nature dictates us, breeding better looking snakes serves only us humans, nothign else.

For me the above is completely clear and understandable, and with the same respect you pay me, you do not seem to follow my personal logic and as I see it, we have to agree to disagree ;p
 
Old 04-09-2007, 05:28 PM   #77
carol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutengel
Raising mice to feed snakes, to me is a what nature dictates us, breeding better looking snakes serves only us humans, nothign else.
No. Nature dictates for the animals to be in nature and not in our homes. Keeping snakes at all only serves us humans, hence raising mice to feed snakes that we decide to take out of nature serves only humans. Than again, surely humans are a part of nature for better or worse so you can argue that anything we do with them would be "natural".

So if I follow your logic... it would be OK if I fed my snakes mice as long as they were raised to be food. However, if I bred mice with the goal of making beautiful pets it would be wrong to feed any from those projects to snakes?

And Susan, super posts. Wish I could rep you.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 05:38 PM   #78
Roy Munson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blutengel
I do think feeding them off is better then wasting them of course but do not try to make yourself look better in a discusiin, saying that you do feed them to other animals... you are still producing redundant animals only for the purpose of breeding the snake you lie, not to keep other animals alive. In ay other breeding business this fact would not be 'covered' by feeding them to other animals...

Raising mice to feed snakes, to me is a what nature dictates us, breeding better looking snakes serves only us humans, nothign else.

For me the above is completely clear and understandable, and with the same respect you pay me, you do not seem to follow my personal logic and as I see it, we have to agree to disagree ;p
Barbara, what if I told you that I'm breeding corn hatchlings as kingsnake food, but that I'm planning on setting aside the nicer specimens from the feeder snakes to sell or raise them? Would that semantic twist on the true story make the practice more acceptable in some way?

I appreciate you applauding my courage, but euthanizing 8g snakes poses little risk to me, and I actually find feeding live or f/t corn snakes to kingsnakes distasteful. I really like both snake types, and I don't like to see my kings eating a corn, and I don't like to see a corn being eaten. In fact, I HAVEN'T ever seen more than a glimpse of this happening. This shows how truly un-courageous I am; I really can't bear to watch. I despise mice, but I really don't like watching snakes eat them either...

I have only had to cull non-feeders and kinked hatchlings, but I would consider culling low-end snakes if it looked better than other options. I should have culled the 10 or 12 hatchlings I sold to the local pet store last season. I made sure they were all well-established, having eaten between 8 and 10 times (some even more). Within a few weeks of them being there, the stupid staff had allowed ALL of them to escape (and numerous other snakes as well). Since then, every time I'm in there I ask the owner or "senior staff" if any have been recovered. No one seems to know or care. I entertain a crazy fantasy that maybe a few were recovered and at least one found a home where it can thrive. Culling would have probably been a more humane option for most of them; I wouldn't have been out the cost of a hundred pinkies, and it would have reduced the feeding costs of a king.
 
Old 04-09-2007, 05:50 PM   #79
Vinman
this the way I look at it these animals would not been breed toghether in nature I have RESPONCEABILTY for these monsters . They are un-natural snakes there for as in nature I will be selecting who lives and passes on their genitc makeup and who will not make the grade, it is life . Some live and some die thats that. I am their god in the un natural world.

I know it just be to hard for some of you to pathom but we are all living things . All fauna what gives us any reason to say a roach ,rat, mouse or any living thing has the right to live over another. So on that thought I feel that a human life is worth less than any animal. and we as humans are the parisite of the earth. we are the most destrocitve organisem on the planet. Life is crule and death is life without death there is no life. Pretty grim but true
 
Old 04-09-2007, 06:15 PM   #80
Mrs InsaneOne
I have no problems culling, whether it is mice, unhealthy hatchling snakes, or guppies. That does not mean that I enjoy or even like killing or feeding off these animals. I feel bad because they won't have the chance to survive, but some of them I know wouldn't survive anyway because of health issues.

My culled mice feed my snakes, the culled snakes feed my other snakes, and the culled fish get fed to bigger fish that eat other fish. I do not use the excuse of feeding the culls off to other animals as an excuse to feel better about feeding one animal to another. I feel bad about killing ANY animal regardless of what or where that animal will end up as a result of the death.

I don't understand the logic of saying that a breeder who feeds off culls to another animal is using the excuse of feeding off the cull to feel better about culling.

I'll use myself as an example. I bought an adult male kingsnake last year, or was it the year before? I can't remember, anyway, I bought this kingsnake because I knew he'd eat the larger mice that my smaller corns wouldn't at the time and because I knew he'd eat the snakes that I had to cull once I started breeding. I also added a second Cali king and a milk snake to the collection because I knew they'd perform the same function if neccessary. That's not to say I don't enjoy all three snakes for thier beauty and looks - because I do - and their diet was not the only reasoning behind thier purchase, though it was one of the considerations of choosing a non-corn snake.

A kingsnake being offered another snake for food is just as natural as offering a 'rat' snake a rodent for food. In the wild, kingsnakes would eat other reptiles without hesitation. So, why would offering a CB kingsnake a culled corn hatchling be a cop out to make someone feel good about culling?

I don't think the reson behind the cull - deformity or excess snake - really makes much of a difference when the end result is that the kingsnake gets a diet similar to one it would have in the wild.

Does this mean I'll feed off all amels, normals, snows, and off-colored animals in addition to malformed and unhealthy ones? No, I personally don't feel comfortable culling out perfectly healthy animals. I also believe in giving every hatchling an equal chance. I've taken in non-feeders from other breeders and have successfully turned them around and they have turned out just as healthy as those that started eating right out of the egg. On the other hand, I've euthanized one of our hatchlings last year because not only did it refuse to eat, it lost weight and only got weaker. (We belive it did itself damage coming out of the egg with it's umbilical cord still on.) I hated killing it off, but I ended it's suffering before it got too out of hand.

It was later fed off to our small kingsnake. Did I enjoy culling and feeding it off? Not really, I felt bad and still do to a point. Do I regret feeding its body off to the king? No. The culled snake went into the food chain as it would have if it had been hatched out in the wild to what would be a natural preditor.

That's my opinion based upon the facts that I learned about my snakes and thier diets. And my personal ethics when it comes to breeding cornsnakes, because I want to provide healthy snakes that can be great pets and/or breeders for anyone who shows an interest.

Was I wrong to purchase snakes for the sole purpose of dealing with future culls? In some people's mind I suppose I would be. Do I think I am? No, I don't think so. I think I am disposing of the culls in a responsible way and making certain that unhealthy and deformed animals that crop up even under the best of circumstances are dealt with in an appropriate manner.

That is just my opinion though...

Jenn
 

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