Poll: are you going to call "bloodred" anything else?

I would assume a Pewter x Bloodred would give bloodreds het for charcoal since a pewter would be a charcoal bloodred . . . or have I not been following the genetics properly?

Well that all depends on if a Pewter is a Charcoal Bloodred or if it is a Diffused Charcoal. Your above statement would be wrong if we adopted the name change (which was the scenerio I was simulating). You could either get Bloodreds or Diffused, you just wouldn't know what until they got old enough and either did or did not develop red.
I think "Blood" is the only practical solution. I even like the sound of Blood Orange Rich!
I am not against change, I am just curious what everyone's motive is for changing it? I assume it is to make things easier, but I think a more drastic name change would create more questions than it would answer.

I see your point but, yeah, I don't think it rolls off the tongue as well...so, yeah, clunky.
LOL....BloodOrange, sounds like some kind of weird drink.


Dritz,

I believe Carol said what she meant to say with ""Why does my diffuse corn look like the bloodred on page 969", ".
I believe you will find she is saying that a person will be sold a Diffused corn and then see a bloodred corn in, say, The Cornsnake Manual and say, "hey, how come mine looks like the bloodred but it isn't a bloodred?" So the newbie will be asking everyone why? OR they will simply think the person who sold it to them sold them the wrong morph. I have to agree with her, there is a lot of info out there already with pictures of the bloodred and it is labled as such. This could cause some real confussion.
And, if you agree that changing the name won't help in Newbies understanding it any better, than I don't understand the need for such a change.


What I don't see is why each one can't eventually have their own name such as Pewter. So how do you describe a Pewter to someone.....are you going to say it has diffuse in it's genes? So, now, what is diffuse, you will need to desribe that. And how are you going to describe it? Probably the same way as you would describe the original morph that you mixed in to get Pewter which is, let's see....ahh..bloodred.
Or are you going to say it has diffuse bloodred in its genes? In which case you are using the bloodred name and still have to describe the bloodred.

To me it all boils down to what is any morph and that they all need to be describe no matter what and you can't get away from that. And to switch horses in the middle of the stream could very well cause one to get very wet. Especially when there is already pictures and info on the morph in previous liturature.

Thanks Dianne, yes I did mean exactly what I typed. ;-)

The one disadvantage to them all having different names is that people new to the hobby will not understand that their "Trundlefart" corn (Lav Blood/Diffused) and "Fartrundle" (Carmel Blood/Diffused) corn will produce non "normal" offspring. Then again..... Corn genetics is not always something easily understood anyways. If a person really wants to know what it all means, they will find out. Regardless of the three little letters that will send them into the pits of misunderstanding. RED

OK, I had to drop the ball last night, I just got too tired to be able to explain what I was trying to say....
Very few people who are interested in corn morphs will only want to learn about "diffuse" corns. They will want to know how lavendar works, how carmel works, anery and so on. And even if we change the name, I gather everyone is in favor of still keeping a line of almost solid RED animals that can actually be allowed to be called Bloodreds or at least Bloodred Diffused. Those people will still want to know what a Bloodred Diffused is and we will STILL have to explain that a Bloodred Diffused is an animal that has the seemingly simple recessive pattern trait and is selectively bred for color. We will still have to explain that when they mix thier Bloodred Diffuse with other morphs or normals that the offspring will most likely loose some of that red color. So we don't really get to skip the step that everyone is trying to avoid. Once a person has a CORRECT understanding as to what a Bloodred corn is (and again even with a name change they will still want to know) they will understand how it could react when you mix and match. Once they have an idea of what anery, carmel, or lav does to cornsnake color, and how the bloodred pattern and color are inherited... They will know that an Anery Blood won't be a color as red as blood. I don't know, perhaps it is because I understood bloodred and anery before anery bloodreds hit the market, but when I first heard the term I never expected to see a red animal.
Right now we find ourselves having to explain to people what Bloodred is, if we change the name, we will find ourselves having to explain what a bloodred is, what a diffuse is, and all the grey areas inbetween.

You are welcome.

And I personally agree with you. I don't think of a 'red' animal because of the use of the name. I know I have said it already, but I still think just putting the word blood on the end and dropping the word red says it all. And once you know what a lav is and how the bloodred gene works, you know what it is. Nothing can change the fact that you have to learn what the bloodred or Diffused gene does to a corn to know what it is and how it could possibly affect the different morphs and the breedings of such.

I've said all I can on this to try to explain why I believe what I do in relation to this question, and I have no capacity to change anyone's mind ... let alone everyones' minds!

So, let me just say that I intend on following through pretty much as I have outlined earlier, because, in my opinion, it is the only option that makes any sense to me. People name things all the time for much less of a reason than I have set forth here, and we all just understand that "that guy" is wierd! LOL I'll suffer that burden, if need be.

All my babies, with the pattern mutation we have heretofore most commonly identified with the bloodred morph, that I produce will be identified as animals, which are "episkiastic." There is absolutley nothing untrue about that, because it is as honest a description of them as amelanistic, anerythristic, or hypomelanistic are for those animals. Whether anyone else describes those snakes in the same way or not, or whether that DESCRIPTION ever gets adopted as an actual name for the pattern mutation, I have no idea nor way to influence the outcome.

All of my line-bred, red epi corns will be listed as "bloodreds" pure and simple.

All epi corns homozygous for charcoal will simply be "pewters."

Just as soon as new names are coined for epi corns homozygous for lavender, carmel, anerythrism, amelansim, snow, amber, butter, ghost, phantom, and/or anything else, I will certainly adopt that name for that combination immediately.

I have never been too interested in naming or renaming a morph in all of this. I have only and always been interested in naming a pattern mutation we all know about, talk about, and can identify ... but have never named.

Thanks for the debate, everyone. It has been a lot of fun!!!

Darin,
I don't mean to beat a dead horse but without knowing exactly how even line-bred Bloodreds will develope and the fact that they aren't red yet, how will you know they will meet your own criteria of what a Bloodred should be? WHEEW! Was that one sentance?

Im calling them Hypo Bloods, Amel Bloods, Anery Bloods, Lavender bloods and so on so forth. As Rich said, even if you switched it around to say Blood Amel, Blood Hypo, Blood Anery, that would still be everything we look for in a name. And people would still know what it meant. Its catchy, and BASICALLY describes what changes the snake will undergo. If I have to explain to someone who is buying one of my hatchlings what that means, I will. I dont think I will ever have to do that though. In my opinion, it is the best choice for these snakes.


Also, lets keep it simple. After all, we are not scientists. Most of us are laymen. If you start calling these animals greek names and names that are so scientific that you need a dictionary to find out what they mean, you will force people to lose interest.

In my own observations, and take this for what it is worth, some of the people who post on a frequent basis seem to have a very high level of intellect. Thats fine and kudos to you but really, you are only scaring the average Joe with the high powered words and meanings. If we keep it as simple as possible, we will all enjoy the hobby together.

Clint,

That is a valid point, and it is one that I will have to address, I'm certain. I will look at the animal's pattern to determine if it is episkiastic or not, then, if it is, and it is not amel (or homozygous for something else) and has the classic signs that show the probability to being a good bloodred (skull head pattern, few to no lateral markings even as a hatchlings, and evidence of the red coloration beginning ... all of which usually begins to present itself by the time a hatchling is sold, in my limited experience), THEN I'll label it as a bloodred instead of just a normally colored episkiastic corn.

If I stay true to my standard as outlined above, who can be hurt but me? The worst thing that can happen is that I sell an episkiastic as a normally colored animal and it matures into a brilliant bloodred! It's really no worse than buying an amel and having it turn out to look like the the best reverse okeetee around in a few years. You got an excellent example at a reasonable price ... Kudos!



Mike,

I understand what you are saying too, but I know of at least five different Greek-based words that we commonly use in everyday description of corns:

Amelanism
Anerythrism
Hypomelanism
Heterozygous
Homozygous

If someone ever develops a black corn, will it not be hypermelanistic? In this thread alone, we have talked about bloodred possibly being hypererythristic ... I don't recall anyone pulling their hair out for want of a Greek to English dictionary.

It is true that I study Koine Greek, so I admit having a fondness for those terms, but I also speak some Spanish and Tsalagi. I ONLY chose that Greek term, because it accurately represents what is going on on the pattern mutation; it cannot be confused with any current morph, since it is totally unique in nature; and it rests on the tradition we already have in using Greek based terms as seen above.

I am certainly not smarter than very many people (if any at all ), so I am not trying to be puffed up in anybody's sight. I'm really sorry, if it looked otherwise. The last thing I would want to do is try to pass myself off as anything near an expert on corns. I certainly am not.

“People don’t like the Bloodred name” Which people? I like the Bloodred name and Blood Corns, Bloods, Lav Bloods and so forth. Lavender Bloods, I wish! Diffused Lavenders, Never!

I think the majority of people like the name Bloodred Corn Snake that has been used for decades and they already use Bloods or Blood Corns when referring to them. It has been used in books and on price list so many times, I can not possibly see it changing. It is already Corn slang. You can put something in print once and it really doesn’t mean anything, but put it in print thousands of times over many, many years and it is unchangeable.

A few people, a small minority of people, do not like the Bloodred name. They are trying to change horses in mid stream and are going to get wet! Even they can not agree on a name, because there is no replacement possible for one that already exist and has been used for a very long time. They are Bloodred Corns and this can not be changed. They will end up getting back on the bloodred horse which is strong and will continue for another 20 + years. Are we really at mid stream? Not likely. I think we are just getting started. It is very nice to see such a strong interest in Bloods again.

There will be many Bloodred Corns on the tables in Daytona this year. People will be looking for them, Amel Bloods, Anery Bloods and so forth. Can you imagine who will have to be doing the explaining if they put Anery “Epi” Corns or Amel “Diffused” Corns on their table. Not only will they be trying to explain what an Epi or Diffuse Corn is, but why they are not trying to pull off a scam. That is all they would be doing the entire show, while they see the Bloodreds selling on the table next to them.

Bloodred Corns are already known by thousands, upon thousands of corn snake enthusiasts, and in general by people interested in reptiles. I do not want to try to explain to all of them, why I am calling a Bloodred Corn something different. They will think I am nuts!

I was looking through Bill and Kathy Love’s “Corn Snake Manuel” again, and always marvel at the Bloodred pictured on page 51. The photo is not exactly right you can tell, but she is a very, very dark brownish maroon. She is not “RED”, but most definitely a Bloodred Corn. Cross her with a mutant morph and you will end up having something more than a Normal Diffused Corn or Anery Epi Corn.

Nice debate! Just my opinion and nothing more. I would be totally shocked if a name change took place and was excepted and used. It seems like trying to change Americans to Diffusians or Epians. Americans means something whether or not it is descriptive or not, no matter what color they happen to be.