stupid breeders why cant you just leave things be

JimGERcream said:

Yes! for me and a ton of other breeders here in europe and hopefully also in the US.

Again, everyone can have, buy, sell, breed and keep ultras. I don't have a problem with hybrids or stuff which is most likely hybrid, I just have a problem when breeders don't label them as what they are. Beginners often don't have a hint of knowledge of the whole colour morph thing, those are the real distributors of that stuff but what should they do when they buy a "corn" from a breeder who doesn't tell the buyer that ultra might be something which is not guaranteed "pure". That is the problem I see here in Europe and also in the States. Doesn't make me more enthusiastic for this hobby, stuff like that really spoils the party. :shrugs:

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Those beginners do not care, and you won't buy from them I'm sure, so why bother so much about it? No snake gets hurt from the above, no people either so what is exactly the problem you have with it? Just the idea that in a population you don't buy from a couple of rat snake genes are spread through it? I guess you cannot sleep then thinking about all the accidental hybrid pairings that occur at noobie homes, and which they sell as corns to other noobs.... did you know that many of them don't even have an idea what sort of snake they have? Over here in Holland I see ads from time to time stating 'I am selling my constricting snake'.

Sorry for my hint of sarcasm but I just do not get why people are bothered so much by what others do if nobody gets harmed. Of course someone like the OP might be a little upset if he has decided he wants to breed as pure corns as possible and finds out that ultra's came from a hybrid cross and might carry some rat snake genes. I do think however he will get over it and will just get rid of the 'contaminated' snakes or realise that meanwhile any ultra offspring is most probably as pure as the average other morph. The latter is why most breeders do not care to label them as hybrids I think. Who cares about it, knows about it anyway. And.... meanwhile some ultra off spring might ass well not carry any rat snake gene anymore, so labeling it 'hybrid' would be unfair

Gerards said:

That's what someone says when they don't want people thinking about what they say. This is the same old defense every time this subject comes up that people defending the hybrids they make try and use. The problem is they don't want to have a intelligent conversation because this is what they do, why change, it's already done. The excuse is, if don't do it, someone else will. It's pure laziness and greed.

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Am I right if you think that people who defend making hybrids do not dare to discuss that in public? If so, I might be the rare exception then. Please explain to me why it is such a problem that people make hybrids? You won't buy from anyone that is not labeled as a thrustworthy breeder of pure snake in your opinion, so you do not have to be afraid of these hybrid surprises, right? The same goes for your 100% pure bred snakes when you sell them I guess? You won't sell them to not trustworthy breeders either, right? Why care about someone elses garden if you can keep yours clean? It is not like those evil hibrids go out to get into your snake room and contaminate your snakes, right?

Gerards said:

That's what someone says when they don't want people thinking about what they say. This is the same old defense every time this subject comes up that people defending the hybrids they make try and use. The problem is they don't want to have a intelligent conversation because this is what they do, why change, it's already done. The excuse is, if don't do it, someone else will. It's pure laziness and greed.

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That's what people do when they want to speak one on one with someone. I've done it and so have many others when discussions get too heats and you're trying to talk to someone and everyone else wants to either bash you or keep throwing they're 2 cents in when you're talking with a certain person. It helps keep things civil IMO.

SnakeAround said:

Am I right if you think that people who defend making hybrids do not dare to discuss that in public? If so, I might be the rare exception then. Please explain to me why it is such a problem that people make hybrids? You won't buy from anyone that is not labeled as a thrustworthy breeder of pure snake in your opinion, so you do not have to be afraid of these hybrid surprises, right? The same goes for your 100% pure bred snakes when you sell them I guess? You won't sell them to not trustworthy breeders either, right? Why care about someone elses garden if you can keep yours clean? It is not like those evil hibrids go out to get into your snake room and contaminate your snakes, right?

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Like doug said about the abnorma in the early 90's, people just mix them until they were gone. I don't buy from most people, mainly because I have all wc snakes. The problem isn't with people that represent their animal correctly and are honest, it's the people they sell them too that are not. You said why worry about other when I can keep mine clean. That's the problem, it's not mine I'm worried about, it's the future. You can justify it all you want, there are plenty of species that have never even been worked with in captivity, why mess up all the established ones when you could be starting new species projects? It's laziness, lack of education, and greed. The quickest way to make money in what has turned from a hobby to a industry. If you were doing it for fun and keeping everything you made that is different. However, all the byproduct that looks similar to one of the parents ends up getting mixed in and ruins all the hard work real breeders put into establishing those animals in our hobby. Like I said, justify all you want but I will always argue this with you.

Gerards said:

Like doug said about the abnorma in the early 90's, people just mix them until they were gone. I don't buy from most people, mainly because I have all wc snakes. The problem isn't with people that represent their animal correctly and are honest, it's the people they sell them too that are not. You said why worry about other when I can keep mine clean. That's the problem, it's not mine I'm worried about, it's the future. You can justify it all you want, there are plenty of species that have never even been worked with in captivity, why mess up all the established ones when you could be starting new species projects? It's laziness, lack of education, and greed. The quickest way to make money in what has turned from a hobby to a industry. If you were doing it for fun and keeping everything you made that is different. However, all the byproduct that looks similar to one of the parents ends up getting mixed in and ruins all the hard work real breeders put into establishing those animals in our hobby. Like I said, justify all you want but I will always argue this with you.

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What's wrong with making money?

Carinata said:

What's wrong with making money?

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Good point, there isn't anything wrong with making money, it's how you do it.

Is selling drugs ok?

Gerards said:

Good point, there isn't anything wrong with making money, it's how you do it.

Is selling drugs ok?

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Nope. I just think too many people in the hobby think making money is exploiting animals.

Carinata said:

Nope. I just think too many people in the hobby think making money is exploiting animals.

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I do not think that at all, as long as they are kept correctly.

I have one ultra/ultramel breeder in my small collection. Will I be getting rid of him? No. Dexter is a beautiful snake and as far as I'm concerned, he's a corn, not a hybrid. If there is any grey rat snake in him, it's so far diluted that it's not an issue. My dog, for example, is a Catahoula. Sighthound was bred into the breed when it was created, but is it considered a sighthound? No, it's still classified as herding, and a "pure" breed. I do label all my offspring with what the parents were (and hets) and the grandparents if I know them. I still am attempting to produce golddust stripes this season because I find them to be stunning snakes. Any butters/amels/etc that will be produced along with golddust will be labeled as having an ultramel parent, but I don't really see what the fuss is about.

DragonsDenSerpents said:

I have one ultra/ultramel breeder in my small collection. Will I be getting rid of him? No. Dexter is a beautiful snake and as far as I'm concerned, he's a corn, not a hybrid. If there is any grey rat snake in him, it's so far diluted that it's not an issue. My dog, for example, is a Catahoula. Sighthound was bred into the breed when it was created, but is it considered a sighthound? No, it's still classified as herding, and a "pure" breed. I do label all my offspring with what the parents were (and hets) and the grandparents if I know them. I still am attempting to produce golddust stripes this season because I find them to be stunning snakes. Any butters/amels/etc that will be produced along with golddust will be labeled as having an ultramel parent, but I don't really see what the fuss is about.

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That's fine, you can justify towards your needs. That's what everyone does and that's the problem. You said "as far as I'm concerned, he's a corn, not a hybrid". You justify it to yourself and that's your right. If it's broke why try and fix it, right?

I'm not really justifying anything as just stating my opinion on the subject. From my understanding, there's no concrete evidence either way. The creator said one was from a corn x corn pair and the other was from a corn x grey rat pair, but he doesn't remember which was which. Could they be hybrids? Sure, they could. It's my opinion that they're not or at least not to a point where it really matters, just as in my dog example above.

Not sure where your hostility is coming from. I will label all my offspring as far back as I know of - that's a big reason why I registered with the ACR. I have always labeled accurately as it is important to me and will continue to do so. You can choose not to purchase ultra/ultramel morphs and that is fine - it's your decision. Just as it is my decision to produce them.

Gerards said:

Good point, there isn't anything wrong with making money, it's how you do it.

Is selling drugs ok?

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It's fine if you produce the methamphetamine and distribute it Gerard, ...it's someone else's fault that it gets into the Elementary school.........


.....sarcasm folks!, but still a great analogy

Anyway, like Gerard stated, he and I are not worried in the slightest bit about our own personal collections, or afraid of not having sources for anything we would ever want to own or work with, it's all the other collections out there and the future hobbyists we are trying to look out for who do not know any better and. I see bogus stuff on a very daily basis, so it's not like I am dreaming this stuff up. I would like people in the future to not have to resort to going to a zoo or a museum, or have to go out and find their own wild snakes to be able to enjoy looking at and owning an authentic species or subspecies of snake one day. It is extremely alarming to me from what I have seen over the years. :awcrap:

I know where to get all the real types of snakes I could ever possibly want, but a huge majority of the hobby solely depends on someone else's word what something is that they buy and later sell, and THAT is the entire problem that gets constantly perpetuated over, and over, and over again.

"high horse"?...no!,........looking out for others and caring about having authentic snakes for the hobby's future?,......most definitely!!

Here's a closing thought.......if crosses and hybrids were not done all the time on such an epic scale, we wouldn't even be having this little issue in the first place, now would we?


~Doug

Gerards said:

Like doug said about the abnorma in the early 90's, people just mix them until they were gone. I don't buy from most people, mainly because I have all wc snakes. The problem isn't with people that represent their animal correctly and are honest, it's the people they sell them too that are not. You said why worry about other when I can keep mine clean. That's the problem, it's not mine I'm worried about, it's the future. You can justify it all you want, there are plenty of species that have never even been worked with in captivity, why mess up all the established ones when you could be starting new species projects? It's laziness, lack of education, and greed. The quickest way to make money in what has turned from a hobby to a industry. If you were doing it for fun and keeping everything you made that is different. However, all the byproduct that looks similar to one of the parents ends up getting mixed in and ruins all the hard work real breeders put into establishing those animals in our hobby. Like I said, justify all you want but I will always argue this with you.

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So, anybody who does not want to pursue the same goals as you, being breeding pure species, is lazy, greedy, not educated enough? People have been hurt for less rude opnions than that... The fact that you think the only good way to breed is to breed pure, does not make other people lazy, greedy, uneducated. I do breed some hybrids and I am none of these. I have read tons of info, I know about genetics and I loose money on breeding them. The lazy part of hybrid breeding I cannot understand... hybrids poop and eat as much as pure species. Breeding interesting hybrids takes the same amount of time and years...

I still do not see why what those lazy, greedy people do interfere with your goals? You can still breed pure species and enjoy the hobby as you like it and establish a pure collection together with people who think alike. It is not like if someones breeds a hybrid with your pure animal, your line is ruined. Your personal animals and all their off spring are still as pure as they were before the hybrid breeding. Why is the existence of a muddy pool of genes so threatening for you? What is gonna go wrong? Are they gonna wipe your pure animals out? Are they gonna invade your collection? I know many purist claim they want to preserve rare species, yet itis not allowed to just free some of your cb snakes into the wild. Only special programs can be used as a source for that. Those programs won't be harmed by any hybrid in people's collection. Nor can we all participate in those projects.

So, again I ask you, what is so threatening about the existence of a muddy population? Who is gonna be hurt/damaged? Can you give me a proper argument besides that it is just bad. Why is it bad besides that one can also breed pure species? That is a lame arguement. One could also just not breed or keep snakes....

EDIT: I read Doug's post after this post, so skip the part about your personal collection, I understand you are not afraid about it.

asnakecalled? said:

ok so i'm still confused are they or are not hybrids because on ians vivarium they are getting labeled as corn x gray rat snake - http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/species/hybrids/ultra/

and on the corn snake they are getting classed as pure corn snake -
http://thecornsnake.com/morph-corn-snake-morphs/single-trait/ultramel-corn-snake

am i just reading to much into this should they just be labeled as ultra

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Ian's is incorrect,
The original White Oak Phase of Gray Ratsnake Ultra gene came from A White Oak Phase Gray Ratsnake. From an INDIVIDUAL. To suggest that ALL gray ratsnakes carry the Ultra gene is like suggesting any one wild corn snake is carrying ALL the recessive color genes. I am guessing you still have not read and comprehended/ absorbed the info in the link in post #6, ON The First Thread Of This Week, Here. <--click it. Take a few days so you do not miss anything. I am now stepping out of this thread. I have my own homework to do. Also, at the top of a page here is a link to Search.

To find archived threads about ultra, Google is handy: <---CLICK IT

DMong said:

It's fine if you produce the methamphetamine and distribute it Gerard, ...it's someone else's fault that it gets into the Elementary school.........


.....sarcasm folks!, but still a great analogy

Anyway, like Gerard stated, he and I are not worried in the slightest bit about our own personal collections, or afraid of not having sources for anything we would ever want to own or work with, it's all the other collections out there and the future hobbyists we are trying to look out for who do not know any better and. I see bogus stuff on a very daily basis, so it's not like I am dreaming this stuff up. I would like people in the future to not have to resort to going to a zoo or a museum, or have to go out and find their own wild snakes to be able to enjoy looking at and owning an authentic species or subspecies of snake one day. It is extremely alarming to me from what I have seen over the years. :awcrap:

I know where to get all the real types of snakes I could ever possibly want, but a huge majority of the hobby solely depends on someone else's word what something is that they buy and later sell, and THAT is the entire problem that gets constantly perpetuated over, and over, and over again.

"high horse"?...no!,........looking out for others and caring about having authentic snakes for the hobby's future?,......most definitely!!

Here's a closing thought.......if crosses and hybrids were not done all the time on such an epic scale, we wouldn't even be having this little issue in the first place, now would we?


~Doug

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So, you do your part to build a population for people who do want to have pure snakes, together with some other purists, whilst others who care less about it, might unknowingly have species that are not 100% what they are said to be? I still do not see the true poblem to begin with.... if most people would want absolutely 100% pure species, they would all come to breeders like you, but they apparently do not. If, in the future, a lack of pure species arises, the market will change according to that. The whole situation with the uncertainty about pureness exists BECAUSE most people care less about it than you do. So for them, there is no problem. Since you know where to get pure species, you do not have a problem either. Hence, there is no problem for anyone, except for you, worrying about other people's market of snakes. I'm sorry, but if not enough people are not gonna be like you, their market is not gonna be like you want it to be. If enough people will in the future, they are gonna come to you and your fellow purists and the muddy market is gonna be wiped out and replaced by a pure species market.

What seems to be mistaken from this whole discussion is that the idea of species is an artificial construct. How do you even determine what's a "pure" corn? There is no standard corn that is used to judge al others against.

Given these points, I find this whole discussion (and the thousands of others like it) just laughable.

SnakeAround said:

So, anybody who does not want to pursue the same goals as you, being breeding pure species, is lazy, greedy, not educated enough? People have been hurt for less rude opnions than that... The fact that you think the only good way to breed is to breed pure, does not make other people lazy, greedy, uneducated. I do breed some hybrids and I am none of these. I have read tons of info, I know about genetics and I loose money on breeding them.

I still do not see why what those lazy, greedy people do interfere with your goals? You can still breed pure species and enjoy the hobby as you like it and establish a pure collection together with people who think alike. It is not like if someones breeds a hybrid with your pure animal, your line is ruined. Your personal animals and all their off spring are still as pure as they were before the hybrid breeding. Why is the existence of a muddy pool of genes so threatening for you? What is gonna go wrong? Are they gonna wipe your pure animals out? Are they gonna invade your collection? I know many purist claim they want to preserve rare species, yet itis not allowed to just free some of your cb snakes into the wild. Only special programs can be used as a source for that. Those programs won't be harmed by any hybrid in people's collection.

So, again I ask you, what is so threatening about the existence of a muddy population? Who is gonna be hurt/damaged? Can you give me a proper argument besides that it is just bad. Why is it bad besides that one can also breed pure species? That is a lame arguement. One could also just not breed or keep snakes....

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You are thinking about you and me only. What about 20 years from now? How many new people will be getting into snaked? I'm sorry you can't understand reason, it's pretty simple. It took a lot of work to develop all the species and morphs in captivity. I guess that doesn't matter, its to easy to understand.

snakepunk said:

What seems to be mistaken from this whole discussion is that the idea of species is an artificial construct. How do you even determine what's a "pure" corn? There is no standard corn that is used to judge al others against.

Given these points, I find this whole discussion (and the thousands of others like it) just laughable.

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Ahhhhhh!!!, a person of sound science, hey???. please tell me of your wordly wisdom would you??

See, when a corn is tossed in with a Pueblan milk x Cal. king on purpose, I KNOW that isn't a "pure" corn standard. I'm smart like that.

Let's add some more grease to the tire treads so we can "spin the wheels" some more here, shall we??..HAHAHA!!! :twohammer


Anyway, yes,..."laughable" for darn sure........


~Doug

No I am not thinking about you and me only. I do understand that you do not like it the idea that the work of you and other people building the hobby might be destroyed. Yet, that does not make it a problem for others per se, just for you and people who think like you, which are not the majority. It is a personal opinion that it is a problem, without any proper arguements that make clear why we should think it is a problem. Saying it is too easy to understand is so easy.... you wanted a proper discussion, so I expected some proper arguements, I guess that is too much to ask.

Who says in the year 2032 anything changed in the snake breeding world? Most probably there will still be some pure breeders and a majority of people who care about it but not to the level you do and another minority who just do not give a damn and are lazy, on educated and greedy. If not, the market will have changed accordingly, if the purists keep on breeding pure stock, which they are able to protect from muddy genes. If the hobby involves into more muddy stock, it is what people want... still, no problem.

People's taste and goals changes through time, that does not make it a problem. Many peopel prefer cereals now for breakfast instead of good old sliced bread. They eat exotic meals instead of local dishes, is that a porblem? Well, if you own a bakery or grow local vegetables you might consider adjusting your activities, yet it is not a problem...

And what about calling hybrid breeders lazy/greedy/uneducated? I hope you are not avoiding that element of the discussion with someone who belongs to this group? It might be interesting!

and, that folks, explains why a Keys looks just like an Alabama or an Okeetee cornsnake...
Kinda makes one wonder about why all wild cornsnakes aren't the color of the new dominant colors Toffee & Buf...