Purist Breeders

I have been reading with much gusto comments made by many purists about how corn snakes in the hobby are being contaminated by hybrid snakes. Some have stated that the damage is done and it is very hard to tell or impossible to tell when a corn snake is less than 6% hybrid. If one buys a corn snake at a pet store or a breeder for that matter and a complete lineage going back to its wild caught ancestors is not supplied how are we to know if that snake is pure or not? Suffice it to say, if the wild caught corn snake has hybrid ancestry some 20 generations back we may never know for certain, but its the best we can do to label those as wild caught and assume their purity?

My point for all of this is to ask, how many serious breeders can trace the lineage of all their snakes all the way back to wild caught origins?

What morphs are available that one can buy from these breeders that come complete with their lineages traced all the way back to wild caught specimens?

Is this lineage available to patrons so they too may continue to track the complete lineage of their corn snakes?

I think this is valuable information to share as many are interested in keeping pure corns and without being able to trace the lineage of all corn snakes involved in a breeding back to wild caught one can never be 100% certain they are pure corn snakes. I'm forgiving the obvious examples of possible hybrid snakes being introduced from the wild when they are not known or suspected as these can not be known with absolute certainty.

Any input for those that would like to know where to purchase pure species corns with such a pedigree going back to wild caught specimens?

I'm particularly interested in knowing which morphs are available in specimens that can be traced back to the wild as well. I know there is a wealth of information that many of you share in regards to this.
Perhaps, each breeder who can trace the lineage of their snakes back to wild caught specimens could simply list the morphs they have available that can be traced back to the wild and whether they would be willing to sell snakes with the lineage included back to wild caught specimens?

These, owned by John Finsterwald, are a start...

Phoenix

Scarlett

Now when they reproduce this season, SOMEONE needs to register the offspring to keep the pedigree continuous.

I see that no muck was stirred up by resurrecting a year old zombie thread about religion started by a now banned member....so you had to see how much trouble you could make by starting up THIS tired old controversial subject.
And you changed your avatar to boot! Yippee, it's good to see my initial feelings validated.

Nanci said:

These, owned by John Finsterwald, are a start...

Phoenix

Scarlett

Now when they reproduce this season, SOMEONE needs to register the offspring to keep the pedigree continuous.

Click to expand...

Thanks Nancy, this is exactly the kind of information I was after.

starsevol said:

I see that no muck was stirred up by resurrecting a year old zombie thread about religion started by a now banned member....so you had to see how much trouble you could make by starting up THIS tired old controversial subject.
And you changed your avatar to boot! Yippee, it's good to see my initial feelings validated.

Click to expand...

There are many controversial subjects in this world. You can skirt them or address them. I felt that it was a valid thread to address. I may be in the minority and therefore my views may be controversial as they do not sit with the majority. That does not mean I or anyone should not be allowed to state their views. I honestly do feel like there is much more to be learned by sharing than by hiding. It is good to know there are others with differing opinions and it is good to share those opinions. Those who wish to judge others opinions will always exist and we will all be guilty of it from time to time and guilty of judging incorrectly as well. I find no fault in an intelligent debate, but when someone makes it personal attacking the person rather than the idea... that I have a problem with. I'm somewhat saddened by your judgmental viewpoint and your happiness that you think you are correct once again.

Sorry to detract from this thread with my retort to Bethany and her off topic post Nancy. I did however look at the snakes you linked. They look beautiful and I agree 100% with you on the importance of keeping those pedigrees going. I'm glad to see your working on these and have such a valuable interest and desire to do so backed with actually doing something. I salute your efforts.

Actually for me, a new snake owner, I find this thread quite informative. I purchased a hybrid snake without knowledge of the fact, and if it was not for the research I've done on this site, I would have likely never known. This is the kind of information all cornsnake owners and breeders can benefit from. It may be old to some, but to me, it's new.
I'm sure many others put in the same expertise and dedication as Nanci, but I hope others who are less informed follow suit.
Knowing who breeds with a precise maintenance of lineage is critical to the wellbeing of this breed, to maintain true specimens when there are so many doubts about certain morphs and the pedigree of cornsnakes in general. For some, this is obviously a touchy debate, but I would like to thank you for allowing me access to such information.
Thank you Nanci for providing the links, I'm learning how everything works and I truly appreciate this kind of information.

Ummm...they ALL trace back to wildcaught snakes . Its the between then and now that is the issue.

Do your homework, all the information is out there. Do folks still buy 1000 dollar dogs at the shelters? Not if they expect to get anything other than a "mutt". Nothing wrong with mutts, my dog Gomez is a $40 shelter dog from NC that's my buddy. But I didn't get a dog to breed him. Quick edit: Nothing wrong with breeding mutts either, new genes is never a bad thing. But no one says you shouldn't know anything about what you want to breed, and at least have a plan/reason to breed them. End edit

It comes down to trust and common sense. Buy lines, morphs whatever that you intend to breed, sell and get taken halfway seriously (if that means anything to you) from breeders who have also done their homework.

I'm trying to do my homework Chris68.

1st step is asking for those willing to share the lineage of their corn snakes back to wild caught pure specimens and what morphs they have available as such.

I realize that unbroken records might be rare in some collections as many have pointed out hybrid influence has tainted many available corns in the hobby. But, if even a handful of breeders have some morphs where the lineage can be traced all the way back to the wild then those purists or those seeking pure corn snakes will have an easier time of doing so. What is the harm in asking these questions? Any added information to this topic will be greatly appreciated by those newbies and perhaps some more experienced as well as a pooling of information from the many breeders that we have here could prove invaluable. Think of all of that information found in one thread.

As for price.... just because someone is sellling something at a high dollar amount doesn't make me any more confident it is pure than someone selling some babies of some wild caught specimens he found out in his/her field. Someone that can present an accurate pedigree/lineage however... that does build confidence as it tells me they at least took the time to record the data and cared enough to do so.

Usually people who have snakes traced back to WC specimens aren't going to have morphs, though.

If you're so into WC locality animals, you should check out Rosy Boas.

Nanci said:

Usually people who have snakes traced back to WC specimens aren't going to have morphs, though.

If you're so into WC locality animals, you should check out Rosy Boas.

Click to expand...

This .

Interesting information Nancy. Any idea why morphs are so hard to find with pedigrees back to the wild?

You're kind of asking us to do your homework for you carpe serpentis

Because most of the morphs weren't collected in the wild. This site has good histories of the origins of most morphs.

So take caramel for instance. ONE snake was in a pet shop in a tank with a bunch of other WC snakes. Rich Z buys it and breeds it in 1991. Can you imagine how many generations have passed since then? There was no registry back then to keep track of things.

Cinder. Some guy trades a gravid snake of Keys origin for a gecko in 1996. Rich breeds her, loses track of which males he used, eventually breeds her back to a son, and the first cinders are hatched. But it takes years to test them against other forms of hypo. Meanwhile, the hets are dispersed throughout a bunch of other lines.

(Shoot- I have to go work...)

chris68 said:

You're kind of asking us to do your homework for you carpe serpentis

Click to expand...

Your right, and this homework if compiled somewhere already would save days as I've already been searching for months in all the wrong places I'm sure. Sometimes, the quickest way to find out information is simply to ask the the breeders themselves if they are willing to share information in a single place to make things easier to find for everyone. The very fact that this is looked at as homework... tells me these are not easy answers to find and if they are... sometimes pointing to where that information is compiled is easier than saying go look for the information.

If no breeder wishes to share the lineage of a corn snake morph in their collection on this thread that they can trace back to wild caught origins that is fine. I simply ask that those who do wish to share that information do so here on this thread. If you don't want to add any helpful information then by all means don't, but don't clutter up the thread either with go do your own homework. There are many buyers that would love to know this information and many may not know how easy it is for hybrids to infiltrate their collection. Education is always the key.

Again, thank you for adding something of substance to this thread Nancy.

Or thirty seconds on google...

Most everything about morph origins is on the Ratsnake Foundation site, or Kathy, Don, and Chuck and Connie's books. The rest can be rummaged for on the ACR. The ACR is the really the only place to browse pedigrees.

Who the heck is "Nancy"???

Okay, let me try to keep traffic down on here by clarifying what I am asking for.

If any breeder would like to share the lineage of any morphs they may have that they can personally trace back to the wild that would be appreciated. If you do not want to share this information that is fine as well. Please, refrain from posting if you don't want to share this information.

Again, thank you Nanci and Baroness for suppling some useful information.

You're not going to find many morphs that trace back. Once a critter is crossed into morphs, all heck breaks loose...

DING!-DING!-DING!..............GOOD EVENING LADIES AND GENTLEMAN from the Bellagio Hotel and Casinooooo!!!!!

LLLLEETS get RRRREADY TOOOO RRRRUMMMBLEEE!!!!!!

and in THIS cornerrrrr..............the obsessed hybridizer wearing the cornsnake x thayeri x Cal. king x Imperial Pueblacorn x Hondo prrrrint trunks!!!

AAAAAND in THIS cornerrr............the logical anti-hybrid advocate representing the well-being of the herpetoculture wearing the pure WHITE trunks!






HAHAAA!!!! :roflmao::rofl::shrugs: