Purist Breeders

Is it really such a bad thing to be the inspiration for someone else's hybrid?

:toiletgra

jmho...It's pretty simple. You'd like to create hybrid snakes, but keep your variable's down by using snakes traceable to or even themselves w/c. In it's "purest"
(get it? lol that's one for me) form that idea makes total sense in regards to what you are (I think) trying to accomplish in the near (far?) future

fwiw I love looking at and keeping (another jmho but a different topic altogether) hybrids and crosses. i don't have any problems with folks breeding them, whether it be the ridiculous sinacornnigritamilkmamajamma snake or just "beasts or "turbo" corns. The reality of the hobby is what it is, that horse has so been beat to death it's been fossilized in coal and twice burnt for power. There will always be guys like Doug, whom I'm metaphorically picking up off the floor right now, who will carry the torch for locality specifics, breed for them, know what to look for in the crosses, and best of all pass down that info, ESPECIALLY now that we have the wonderful ol' Interweb; everything is out there for all to see. And there will always be new keepers who just want that, and don't want to bang their heads against "what is" already in circulation. And guys like me who totally appreciate what and why they do it even if I don't always agree with their opinions on things involving the community and hobby at large. We all know what opinions are like. But that was my reference to "Do the homework". It's not targeted at anyone, just a reminder to everyone. It's ALL out there, as Mulder said to Scully...
...

and it does explain Doug's swooning too...metaphorically...

chris68 said:

jmho...It's pretty simple. You'd like to create hybrid snakes, but keep your variable's down by using snakes traceable to or even themselves w/c. In it's "purest"
(get it? lol that's one for me) form that idea makes total sense in regards to what you are (I think) trying to accomplish in the near (far?) future

fwiw I love looking at hybrids. i don't have any problems with folks breeding them, whether it be the ridiculous sinacornnigritamilkmamajamma snake or just "beasts or "turbo" corns. The reality of the hobby is what it is, that horse has so been beat to death it's been fossilized in coal and twice burnt for power. There will always be guys like Doug, whom I'm metaphorically picking up off the floor right now, who will carry the torch for locality specifics, breed for them, know what to look for in the crosses, and best of all pass down that info, ESPECIALLY now that we have the wonderful ol' Interweb; everything is out there for all to see. And there will always be new keepers who just want that, and don't want to bang their heads against "what is" already in circulation. And guys like me who totally appreciate what and why they do it even if I don't always agree with their opinions on things involving the community and hobby at large. We all know what opinions are like. But that was my reference to "Do the homework". It's not targeted at anyone, just a reminder to everyone. It's ALL out there, as Mulder said to Scully...
...

and it does explain Doug's swooning too

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Very well worded reply Chris. I sincerely admire Doug for loving locality snakes and breeding them. I really do. I admire his knowledge that he shares so frequently as well. And I definitely have to agree with you that their is no point beating our heads together simply because we have a difference of opinion. What one person may think is ridiculous, another may think of as sweet, hot, or any number of positive adjectives one might like to insert.

I sincerely wanted to know what pure line morphs that were available that had their complete lineage traced back to the wild as everything I could find... was muddled or unclear. I thought, asking the breeders here to list any they might have or know about seemed easy enough and heck, many might be thinking, let me buy some of those... finally, something I can be more certain about. If memory serves me, there is a very nice palmetto out there right now that has wild caught origins and some other morphs have wild caught origins, I just don't know about the after.... as I have to believe more people like Doug are out there who are breeding for known verifiable purity without all the uncertainties that leaves us to question. I don't have to like the way a message is presented to admire the work of the person, or the knowledge of a person, or even their drive or passion. How something is presented on both sides is important for open and honest communication and perhaps even more delicacy/tact is required when feelings run so deep as they appear do with this subject. I'd sincerely like to thank Nanci and the others that supplied useful information.

I think you're going to find most morphs really difficult to trace back to original wild-caught lines. The nature of the hobby being that the most likely response to finding a possible new pattern or colour combo is to outcross then line breed to firstly determnine if it's a reproducible genetic factor (as opposed to incubation issues) and then to get more of your new variety to sell.
Several morphs seem to originate from lucky buys from petshops, where a breeder spotted an unusual colour or pattern, so the true origins of those descendent will never be known. Not by any attempt at concealment, but because it just isn't known.
Which is why I asked about your plans. Will you start out with wild-caught lines, so that you will know with reasonable certainty that you are starting from scratch, or will you find hybrids that please you and with characteristics that you want to refine?

It's hilarious to see a hybridizer trying to justify what he does by implying that no one else can prove that what they produce is "pure," thereby they are hybridizers too, so we should just "throw in the towel" on "purity."

I've seen a heck of a lot of animals for sale being advertised as something they are not. This is because when hybridizers cannot sell their wares as hybrids, they dishonestly label them as "pure." And I've got a problem with that.

This same topic has been debated many times for many years on many forums. It's just a hybridizer trying to be relevant. If hybrids are so great, then a larger percentage of snakes advertised as hybrids would be in the marketplace.

Here's a Corn Snake that is offspring from wild caught Dekalb County, Alabama parents. I expect to be producing these this year and can trace them back to their wild lineage. I can also do that with several other snakes that I work with.

diamondlil said:

I think you're going to find most morphs really difficult to trace back to original wild-caught lines. The nature of the hobby being that the most likely response to finding a possible new pattern or colour combo is to outcross then line breed to firstly determnine if it's a reproducible genetic factor (as opposed to incubation issues) and then to get more of your new variety to sell.
Several morphs seem to originate from lucky buys from petshops, where a breeder spotted an unusual colour or pattern, so the true origins of those descendent will never be known. Not by any attempt at concealment, but because it just isn't known.
Which is why I asked about your plans. Will you start out with wild-caught lines, so that you will know with reasonable certainty that you are starting from scratch, or will you find hybrids that please you and with characteristics that you want to refine?

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Tara80 said:

I concur Hybreed, I don't think it really does matter. I'm a firm believer that many; if not most, of corn morphs originated from other 'Colubrids'. Also, remember that classifications of families and species are only defined by humans.

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http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1478869

I find valuable information in what you have posted and very legitimate questions asked in a very reasonable and respectful manner diamondlil.

I would like to start out with wild-caught lines if I can be so lucky as to acquire what I am after as some are a bit pricey for my taste, but they haven't been tried to my knowledge so it will make it much more interesting for me personally. I was indeed also hoping to see what morphs were available in corns where the lineage was completely known as this would allow me to work with yet a few more variables that might prove of interest.

As for trying with other fine hybrids that others have created, I've obviously thought about that as well a great deal and I think I would be giving up a lot if I didn't at least attempt to work with some of these hybrids to learn a little bit about possible fertility issues and the like that I can then try to figure out how to resolve if there are any such issues before I get to the same level of difficulty with my own hybrids.

Given a choice between both options or one however, and I would rather do something that has not been attempted to my knowledge as of yet. Again, I'm still doing a bit of research, but I intend narrow things down and to make my initial purchases within the next few months if I can find the exact snakes I am after. I'm thinking that in all honesty, the corn element will be the easiest to find as I'm willing to sacrifice morphs for known lineage.

Who knows if my attempts will even be fruitful, but if they are not I will at least have found a few ways not to do something and that will be a learning process in and of itself worth something.

tspuckler said:

It's hilarious to see a hybridizer trying to justify what he does by implying that no one else can prove that what they produce is "pure," thereby they are hybridizers too, so we should just "throw in the towel" on "purity."

I've seen a heck of a lot of animals for sale being advertised as something they are not. This is because when hybridizers cannot sell their wares as hybrids, they dishonestly label them as "pure." And I've got a problem with that.

This same topic has been debated many times for many years on many forums. It's just a hybridizer trying to be relevant. If hybrids are so great, then a larger percentage of snakes advertised as hybrids would be in the marketplace.

Here's a Corn Snake that is offspring from wild caught Dekalb County, Alabama parents. I expect to be producing these this year and can trace them back to their wild lineage. I can also do that with several other snakes that I work with.

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Well stated Tim,......I couldn't agree more with all that either.

Nice Alabama corn! ....I remember that animal when it was just a little tike.


~Doug

tspuckler said:

It's hilarious to see a hybridizer trying to justify what he does by implying that no one else can prove that what they produce is "pure," thereby they are hybridizers too, so we should just "throw in the towel" on "purity."

I've seen a heck of a lot of animals for sale being advertised as something they are not. This is because when hybridizers cannot sell their wares as hybrids, they dishonestly label them as "pure." And I've got a problem with that.

This same topic has been debated many times for many years on many forums. It's just a hybridizer trying to be relevant. If hybrids are so great, then a larger percentage of snakes advertised as hybrids would be in the marketplace.

Here's a Corn Snake that is offspring from wild caught Dekalb County, Alabama parents. I expect to be producing these this year and can trace them back to their wild lineage. I can also do that with several other snakes that I work with.

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If someone is being dishonest, whether they be a hybridizer or a purist breeder, I have a problem with that as well. I don't think were going to get rid of dishonesty however, which is why I advocate doing as you are doing... keeping track of the lineages all the way back to the wild. When you allow unknowns into your breeding pool from a local pet shop or otherwise, your allowing those variables into your your own work. I don't think it is too much to state nor do I think it is too much to state that it we are responsible for what we allow into our collections. If we accept snakes of unknown lineage we have to be okay with all that it entails when we do so. This, to me, is why we have may have more hybrid influence in so many corn snakes in the hobby as others have pointed out. There are just too many unknowns and too much speculation as to what may be of hybrid origin or not. If you want pure specimens buy all means, get pure specimens from the wild and breed them and keep track of their lineages. If however, purity is not something your overly concerned with then there is not as much need to keep track perhaps. I can see that side as well. The old saying, if it looks like a corn and acts like a corn... then that is good enough for me is also valid to me. Everyone has their own opinion and reason for wanting what they want and for doing what they want and no amount of debating is likely to change that. So, we will always have hybridizers, purists, and everyone in between. Some will think its okay to put a hybrid on the market perhaps that looks like a corn and acts like a corn and may not list its complete lineage and who knows... perhaps there was some milk influence some 10 generations back and that person sees it as being insignificant much as many may think that if it looks like a corn and acts like a corn at the pet shop and has something new to offer..... The point is no one is going to do anything other than what they are doing. So, in the end we must take control of what we allow into our collections and stop blaming hybridizers for doing what they will always do or for corn snake breeders who are not so serious that they bother with keeping complete breeding records going all the way back to the wild. Hybrids are great to one person and to another person they are not. I get that. I even get that right now hybrid lovers appear to be in the minority. Being in the minority doesn't make one right or wrong. It simply makes one a part of the minority. I applaud your work Tspuckler and I wish more would keep records as complete as you do.

Keeping accurate breeding records is also beneficial to the hybridizer as it allows one to help figure where traits may have come from. Is it absolutely necessary? Know, it is not. For in the end if you are able to create something new and novel and reproduce it... that is enough for many. I dream of potentials unwrapped when I dream of hybrids. I dream of what has not been seen before in any snake and what may be and these questions are not answered unless one dares to try.

Doug once mentioned several hybrids that have not been attempted . I'm thankful for that as it means there is still much to be tried and much to be learned. If I can acquire pure specimens and keep accurate records all the way back to the wild I will be able to study the interplay of genetics between species much better than I could with snakes of unknown heritage. More importantly, I will be able to take pride in the fact that my hybrids complete heritage will be better known than most morphs of suspected pure lineages.

This will clearly show that hybridizers are more than capable of keeping accurate records all the way back to the wild and yes... hybridizers can even be trusted to do so better than many breeders have done. If I'm incapable of finding the specimens I am after with complete lineages... I will of course keep records from the moment of receipt however and go from their with the assumption that one can never be certain, but will nevertheless endeavor to keep accurate records from that moment forth as I am not so hung up on purity as to forego my attempts at trying to hybridize corns to snakes they have never to my knowledge been hybridized with. Life is an adventure and to hybridize is a great adventure into many unknowns with many unexpected wonders.

Again, I applaud your work Tspuckler and rest assured I will also want to keep pure lines going to ensure I have a pure or as pure as can be attained stock to breed my hybrids back into until I am reasonably sure I have created hybrids that have never been done before, but that can not be detected as hybrids by many. Then, I will flood the pet stores with them and these snakes will infiltrate many breeders collections as they are not so demanding as to actually require lineages before they buy and they will be drawn to them as I will keep them looking just different enough to make others want to acquire the new corn that they have found. Insert Evil laugh here.:cheers:

tspuckler said:

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That snake have a Edvard Munch “The Scream” head pattern. A true screamer!

dave partington said:

Good points.
Considering he doesn't have any snakes at all.... Though on other threads when asked to show his snakes, he shows pictures of other people's snakes, and even posted a picture I took, or something not his, with no credit.
.

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My collection that many keep making jabs about as well as the accusation that I am trying to take credit for others hybrids is absurd. I've left it alone for the most part as I have never, and I repeat never, tried to make it sound like I have anything more than what I have. If anything, I would have snakes and not tell others about them as I would not want others to be able to guess so easily where I am going and beat me to the punch. I realize I am new here and trying my best to learn and to share the little I do know. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. But no amount of jabs will undermine simple logic. If you don't breed with unknowns found at a pet shop or otherwise you won't introduce unknowns into your collections. It really is as simple as that.


http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124438&page=2

My collection 1/2/13

I keep over 200+ photos of various hybrids I have found of hybrids others have made as I am researching where I want to go with my own hybrids. What I might like to buy to engage in my own projects. I like to see these hybrids in my photo albums so I know where I don't want to go as well as where I might like to go. No, I do not take the time to credit each and every breeder or source for those pictures as they are for my research as well as my enjoyment. I am taking my time, trying to do my homework, and trying not to jump into this too fast.

As for my math comment, the first time you breed a pure corn to another species such as a honduran you are looking at a snake that is 50% corn.

2nd time you breed back to a pure corn your looking at 75% corn

3rd time 12.5 is honduran genetics while the remaining is 87.5 corn snake

4th time 6.25 is honduran genetics while the remaining is 93.75 corn snake

5th time 3.125 is honduran genetics while the remaining is 96.875 corn snake

6th time 1.5625 is honduran genetics while the remaining is 98.4375 corn snake

7th time 0.78125 is honduran genetics while the remaining is 99.21875 corn snake

Now, given that, we can conclude that you can breed back with a known hybrid to a pure corn to get a very reasonable amount of purity within 7 generations.

8th time will give you 0.390625 honduran genetics and 99.609375 corn genetics

9th time will give you 0.1953125 honduran genetics and 99.8046875 corn snake.

And still a hybrid...

airenlow said:

And still a hybrid...

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Can you account for the purity of all your corn snakes 9 generations back to the wild?

If you can't.... then such a hybrid would indeed have more credibility than your corn snakes of unknown origins in my personal opinion.

At the very least, you could honestly say, such a hybrid would have 99.8% proven purity whereas your corn snake would have....?

More credibility with who?

Any gaps in your lineage back to the wild... you can count those as your unknowns... or what you don't know for sure about your corns heritage/lineage. If you have a 25% uncertainty then that is much worse than having a known 2% deviation of purity in my opinion as 2% known impurity is much better than 25% unknown purity as it leaves much to much to guesswork considering all of the hoopla and known/suspected hybrid influence. Again, that is my personal opinion and my personal degree of honesty so to speak.

Unknown could be pure also. Fact...not my personal opinion.

Save the mutt analogy. You're back on the ignore list...

airenlow said:

And still a hybrid...

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And worse yet, a KNOWN man-made hybrid that "looks" authentic, then be sold as what it "looks" like.......................authentic!

He could breed a corn into a Honduran 15 times, and it will ALWAYS be a known hybrid no matter WHAT it looks like.

There was some guy I know that told a good herpetologist friend of mine that he could breed an authentic Guatemalan L.t.abnorma into a Honduran for a couple generations and then have a "real" abnorma. :laugh:

The thing that is always overlooked by many is that nature evolved the abnorma into what it looks like over countless millenia, not from hybridizer dropping it in with another closely-related subspecies in his snake room.


~Doug

I hold myself to higher standards... I don't believe that one should for example, make claims that knowledge, opinion, or logic is dependent on how many snakes one owns. Or that one should make claims that another is trying to take credit for others hybrids when in fact that person has been claiming and even posting their "collection" for all to see. I guess, I believe in honesty. Not defaming someone else's character or attacking it unfairly... those are some of the things I believe in. I also believe in taking credit for allowing unknowns into ones collection and not unfairly blaming others for them. There is much that can not be known or that perhaps, never will be known. I believe there is more to be gained by working together rather than against each other. I believe there is more to be gained by sharing and much less to be gained by pointing fingers.