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Copperhead in the barn.........How do we handle this??!!?
- Thread starter John3:16
- Start date
VickyChaiTea
Snake enthusiast
I'm not saying to never kill them, either. I'm just saying that killing is not always the only answer.
And I would love to see evidence that a snake won't be able to find food, water, or an area to brumate on it's own once it's been relocated. That just doesn't make sense to me.
And I would love to see evidence that a snake won't be able to find food, water, or an area to brumate on it's own once it's been relocated. That just doesn't make sense to me.
knox
New member
I agree - it's not ALWAYS the best answer...
I thought the same for years about relocating snakes, and used the large pythons in Florida as an example. Then I saw a show on relocating Rattlesnakes that were tagged with location devices and many of them wound up dying when moved mere miles from where they were found.
Now, I don't know if that applies to all snakes and all habitats. For instance, I would guess that a Black Rat found in my back yard would do well in other areas around Knoxville where I have found them.
I don't know enough to make a certain argument either way - just saying there is a chance of the snake dying just as it living with what I have read and seen.
Cattsy
New member
Not quite true, I got an infraction for my "Mr Naturalist" comment *shrugs*
WingedSweetheart
New member
I can feel for the poster in thinking there is no one around to help because I myself live out in the middle of nowhere on a farm with a house in the forest. All the nearest towns are at the very least an hours drive away. All we have is a dinky little volunteer fire department that is in the same building as our sheriffs station. We only have one deputy on duty at a time and is usually nowhere to be seen. When we call the police for anything they always say they have no one in the area to send (sucks majorly). Our county does have an animal shelter but it too is an hours drive away and usually you have to call them over and over and over to have them send their dog catcher out to get unwanted dogs off your property. Even if you have a rabid raccoon on your property and call the DA like is suggested on the news they won't send someone and you end up having to kill it yourself.
But I have done some digging online and found some wildlife rescues and whatnot that are in other counties but would most likely be willing to come out or even suggest some one that might be in my area to help me if I find a dangerous animal or even just an injured or sick animal. I once had a nest of baby robins and raised them myself for 8 days before I finally found a rescue to take them and I learned from them that they would have even been willing to travel to my area to pick the birds up and that they didn't just do birds they would come for any animal.
So do some online research for your state and you might find something similar in other areas. TN seems to have just as much out of the way hick towns as WV and I'm sure you can find something if you look hard enough.
But I have done some digging online and found some wildlife rescues and whatnot that are in other counties but would most likely be willing to come out or even suggest some one that might be in my area to help me if I find a dangerous animal or even just an injured or sick animal. I once had a nest of baby robins and raised them myself for 8 days before I finally found a rescue to take them and I learned from them that they would have even been willing to travel to my area to pick the birds up and that they didn't just do birds they would come for any animal.
So do some online research for your state and you might find something similar in other areas. TN seems to have just as much out of the way hick towns as WV and I'm sure you can find something if you look hard enough.
Carinata
Ever Evolving Exotics
No see that one was because of the "retarded" gesture
unch: Anyway, when I have children I will teach them. Not kill the copperhead because children imitate their parents so what if the child says. "Ok I"m gonna kill the copperhead because daddy does!" See I also have severe ADHD. And I have had it drilled into me not to play with unfamiliar animals but I have learned and I do herp for copperheads occasionally. It is just so dumb to kill an animal that is really helping you. If you avoid the animal and educate your children and don't show them that DESTRUCTION of nature is right, no worries
Lennycorn
Just see the truth
Oh sorry LOL... Must have missed that one
Really!!!
I missed it too.
And I looked.
I believe relocation has no ill affect.
I think this is the case here.
And as Knox stated before how do ya prevent yourself from stepping on one when working in the barn/yard. For the safety of the young children that don't understand, I would have to do what is necessary.
Lennycorn
Just see the truth
oneirogenesis
become passers-by
I'd just like to jump in and say to John 3:16 that I think he is doing the right thing. It's fine to plan and discuss and argue about what we would do, or what is right to do, in a difficult situation. In the heat of the moment, however, we are called to act and we do the best that we can.
It is the way nature works that we protect ourselves and our kin first. That is how all living things operate. What differentiates human beings is that we are capable of self-awareness and must therefore take responsibility for our impact on the world around us. I imagine many people in the OP's situation would just kill the snake without question. He, on the other hand, had the sense of responsibility to ask himself how he could do better next time by not only protecting his family, but by considering the life of the snake and its contribution to the ecosystem.
It's fine to hold ideals, but real-world situations call for practical and immediate solutions. If you are not fully equipped the first time you encounter a problem, you learn more and prepare yourself better. That is what John 3:16 is doing and it's an indication that he has good character.
For those of us who don't have children, a good question to ask ourselves is this: How would I feel if my parents did not put me first were I in potential danger?
It is the way nature works that we protect ourselves and our kin first. That is how all living things operate. What differentiates human beings is that we are capable of self-awareness and must therefore take responsibility for our impact on the world around us. I imagine many people in the OP's situation would just kill the snake without question. He, on the other hand, had the sense of responsibility to ask himself how he could do better next time by not only protecting his family, but by considering the life of the snake and its contribution to the ecosystem.
It's fine to hold ideals, but real-world situations call for practical and immediate solutions. If you are not fully equipped the first time you encounter a problem, you learn more and prepare yourself better. That is what John 3:16 is doing and it's an indication that he has good character.
For those of us who don't have children, a good question to ask ourselves is this: How would I feel if my parents did not put me first were I in potential danger?
Cattsy
New member
No see that one was because of the "retarded" gesture
Anyway, when I have children I will teach them. Not kill the copperhead because children imitate their parents so what if the child says. "Ok I"m gonna kill the copperhead because daddy does!" See I also have severe ADHD. And I have had it drilled into me not to play with unfamiliar animals but I have learned and I do herp for copperheads occasionally. It is just so dumb to kill an animal that is really helping you. If you avoid the animal and educate your children and don't show them that DESTRUCTION of nature is right, no worries
Whatever, perhaps it was deserved then, that particular comment was rhetorical, however the sarcasm in the sentence previous to that was very obvious.
I think was is infuriating me the most is how you obviously are taking what I have to say on the subject out of context, including the points that are in support of your point of view, and how you blithely avoid answering very pointed questions.
So, beyond "teaching them" about snakes and hots, would you take a chance, however remote, about inflicting that sort of damage on your little brother?
How would you feel if that little boy, who follows you out herping and looking for copperheads, decided that one day, on his own, was going to do what "big brother does" and go out on his own to look for snakes... and got bitten.
You can sit there and say it would never happen that he "knows better" but let me assure you that it DEFENITELY could... You said yourself that children imitate what they see.
THis is a very valid and poignant question as well, perhaps you should take a moment to consider this point of view:
Again, let me stress, that I am not advocating killing as the first and ONLY option, which, if you had bothered to fully read any of my previous posts, you would know that. However, there are some serious issues around children and dangerous animals and I am very very concerned by the fact that you seem to continually gloss over that fact. Especially when you've also claimed to be "responsible" for the well being and safety of a child.
You are certainly mature enough to at least be able to comprehend both sides of things even if you do not agree with them. That is the beauty of being able to debate a point.
I can certainly see your point of view, once upon a time I thought very much like you did, and to a certain extent still do, I would always take education, relocation, or other measures before extermination, however there are limits to that.
xreinx
New member
back to the post way back when when.. so leaving the Snake in your barn, knowing that it will be someplace diffrent then where you left it.. is acceptable? knowing that the kids are going to be there again... and if not them then livestock?
dont get me wrong, I am all for the animals, really I am.. but I dont see a good ending to this.. Leaving the deadily animal stalking its own food In a barn that KIDS work and even play in..
I live in bear country yes, but if the animal is digging threw My barn, after feed.. You will be sure its going to get out of there with big warning from me, and Stay gone, or end up on the dinner table!
Ive lost my fair share of animals to wild animals, dogs to wolves, cats to foxes and eagles, but you better believe if that animal is TOO close to the family, while kids are around, it will be killed. a snake is going to fallow its tongue back to the barn, where the mice are. even relocated, unless its dumped some miles away and probily on someone elses property.., it will be back. how safe are the kids then?
snakes, unlike bears, dont know boundries.. they CANT learn whats good or bad, they just know survival, someone steps on them, or walks by shaking his world, no matter how harmelss, he will strike out.
I dont know about everyone else here but Id rather save the children before anything bad happens, and if that means killing a deadily snake, then so be it.
again, I love animals, I grew up in the wilds, but if you had a chance to stop it before it happened, then why take the chance of it happening later?
kutos Knox and kattsy, my point exactually.
and I hope anyone else who is reading this, familys life over that of wild animals. even if it means killing them to save yours.
a saying my father said to me when I was a kid,
If your doing it, its worth doing,
if its worth doing, its worth being done right,
If your NOT doing it right, then you need to stop and think about what your doing, and if your dealing with a life, you had better make sure your doing what you can handle being done to you.
dont get me wrong, I am all for the animals, really I am.. but I dont see a good ending to this.. Leaving the deadily animal stalking its own food In a barn that KIDS work and even play in..
I live in bear country yes, but if the animal is digging threw My barn, after feed.. You will be sure its going to get out of there with big warning from me, and Stay gone, or end up on the dinner table!
Ive lost my fair share of animals to wild animals, dogs to wolves, cats to foxes and eagles, but you better believe if that animal is TOO close to the family, while kids are around, it will be killed. a snake is going to fallow its tongue back to the barn, where the mice are. even relocated, unless its dumped some miles away and probily on someone elses property.., it will be back. how safe are the kids then?
snakes, unlike bears, dont know boundries.. they CANT learn whats good or bad, they just know survival, someone steps on them, or walks by shaking his world, no matter how harmelss, he will strike out.
I dont know about everyone else here but Id rather save the children before anything bad happens, and if that means killing a deadily snake, then so be it.
again, I love animals, I grew up in the wilds, but if you had a chance to stop it before it happened, then why take the chance of it happening later?
kutos Knox and kattsy, my point exactually.
and I hope anyone else who is reading this, familys life over that of wild animals. even if it means killing them to save yours.
a saying my father said to me when I was a kid,
If your doing it, its worth doing,
if its worth doing, its worth being done right,
If your NOT doing it right, then you need to stop and think about what your doing, and if your dealing with a life, you had better make sure your doing what you can handle being done to you.
Cattsy
New member
Wonderful saying... I say something similar to my kids all the time. Well said!
xreinx
New member
my dad put a gun in my hand when I was 8, and told me not to mess up, and if I was going to be a hunter, that there was no turning back if I pulled the trigger, (he had daughters not sons, we became his sons) I put meat on the table for my mother that night.. and every time she asked for more from that time on.
dont get me wrong though.. grandma tought me about the fish, and had me watch little silver minos lay eggs and hatch them, ive tossed feather puffs to baby foxes, and even petted baby beavers. (not something I Recomend when Big momma is near by.. they can bite threw 2 inch thick rubber boots like butter and are MUCH bigger then they appear) Ive called baby ducks to me from the wild, and watched them go back to mom when they relize that I am not a duck at all.
they also tought me life is sacrid, human life should be protected. I come from a vary old culture, and my familys beliefs are strange, but they work.. and its alien when someone speaks up to save something dangerous when harm is so close to children....
I guess I dont understand.. I mean, as snake keepers, we feed mice to snakes, but noone speaks out againt that.. but poisness snakes in a barn with KIDs and everyone is suddinly againt killing it cause it isnt doing anything wrong?! really.. the picture in my head is lopsided and distorted.. focuse is off the kids.. and to me.. that is wrong.
dont get me wrong though.. grandma tought me about the fish, and had me watch little silver minos lay eggs and hatch them, ive tossed feather puffs to baby foxes, and even petted baby beavers. (not something I Recomend when Big momma is near by.. they can bite threw 2 inch thick rubber boots like butter and are MUCH bigger then they appear) Ive called baby ducks to me from the wild, and watched them go back to mom when they relize that I am not a duck at all.
they also tought me life is sacrid, human life should be protected. I come from a vary old culture, and my familys beliefs are strange, but they work.. and its alien when someone speaks up to save something dangerous when harm is so close to children....
I guess I dont understand.. I mean, as snake keepers, we feed mice to snakes, but noone speaks out againt that.. but poisness snakes in a barn with KIDs and everyone is suddinly againt killing it cause it isnt doing anything wrong?! really.. the picture in my head is lopsided and distorted.. focuse is off the kids.. and to me.. that is wrong.
wstphal
working in the Gulag
Just a few thoughts.
1) my dad kept me safe, and HE relocated hots from our yard with the push broom and trashcan so clearly a good caring parent who put his kid's safety at the top of the list CAN decide that this is one way to keep your child safe
2) if there has been one hot in the barn, THERE WILL BE MORE in the vicinity of the house and barn, and killing that one solves the immediate problem but doesn't prevent it from occurring again, and no amount of killing hots is going to keep them out of the area around the house if you live in a rural area that has hots (I lived in suburban/exurban FL when I was a young child and my dad removed multiple hots from our yard but there was always another one in 6-12 months, so killing them wouldn't have kept me safe) so I don't understand how y'all think that killing and killing and killing hots is going to keep their kids safe. I understand the parental passion to keep their kids safe on an intellectual level, and I support it, but there are ALWAYS more copperheads, cottonmouths & rattlers in rural areas in the SE USA, and always more rattlers in many rural areas all over the USA. If making sure your children CANNOT EVER come near one of these by accident is a priority, move to the Seattle area (no hots are indigenous to the area), move into the urban core of a city, move into an apartment building and keep your children from playing anywhere suburban etc, because these snakes are native to the USA and no amount of killing the ones you see is going to eliminate the ones you haven't seen yet. I am not saying anyone who advocates killing hots found in their children's outdoor environment is bad or stupid. I am not even arguing for the ecological soundness of letting them live although that's been mentioned eloquently. We are all good people here. It's just these guys don't need huge amounts of virgin land to thrive & reproduce, so they are suburban, exurban and rural wildlife. And I am not overlooking the spectrum of badness a crotalid bite can be, anything from ouchy (dry bite) to life-threatening or deadly, and not unaware of the cruel pain it would inflict on anyone here (including the naturalists) to see a young child suffer thru the experience of an envenomation.
3) the OP did the best she could at the time but I think if she has a barn, lives in a rural area and has young children she can't exterminate all the hots that could come within the area her children play, so for the future she is doing a GREAT thing by getting info, and she has done a FANTASTIC job raising her kids that they came to her instead of touching it, and I want to make sure that's really clear. And any other parent here who is doing what they can to keep their kids safe, that's GREAT too, so don't take #2 as dissing your parenting skills or your love for your kids.
1) my dad kept me safe, and HE relocated hots from our yard with the push broom and trashcan so clearly a good caring parent who put his kid's safety at the top of the list CAN decide that this is one way to keep your child safe
2) if there has been one hot in the barn, THERE WILL BE MORE in the vicinity of the house and barn, and killing that one solves the immediate problem but doesn't prevent it from occurring again, and no amount of killing hots is going to keep them out of the area around the house if you live in a rural area that has hots (I lived in suburban/exurban FL when I was a young child and my dad removed multiple hots from our yard but there was always another one in 6-12 months, so killing them wouldn't have kept me safe) so I don't understand how y'all think that killing and killing and killing hots is going to keep their kids safe. I understand the parental passion to keep their kids safe on an intellectual level, and I support it, but there are ALWAYS more copperheads, cottonmouths & rattlers in rural areas in the SE USA, and always more rattlers in many rural areas all over the USA. If making sure your children CANNOT EVER come near one of these by accident is a priority, move to the Seattle area (no hots are indigenous to the area), move into the urban core of a city, move into an apartment building and keep your children from playing anywhere suburban etc, because these snakes are native to the USA and no amount of killing the ones you see is going to eliminate the ones you haven't seen yet. I am not saying anyone who advocates killing hots found in their children's outdoor environment is bad or stupid. I am not even arguing for the ecological soundness of letting them live although that's been mentioned eloquently. We are all good people here. It's just these guys don't need huge amounts of virgin land to thrive & reproduce, so they are suburban, exurban and rural wildlife. And I am not overlooking the spectrum of badness a crotalid bite can be, anything from ouchy (dry bite) to life-threatening or deadly, and not unaware of the cruel pain it would inflict on anyone here (including the naturalists) to see a young child suffer thru the experience of an envenomation.
3) the OP did the best she could at the time but I think if she has a barn, lives in a rural area and has young children she can't exterminate all the hots that could come within the area her children play, so for the future she is doing a GREAT thing by getting info, and she has done a FANTASTIC job raising her kids that they came to her instead of touching it, and I want to make sure that's really clear. And any other parent here who is doing what they can to keep their kids safe, that's GREAT too, so don't take #2 as dissing your parenting skills or your love for your kids.
wstphal
working in the Gulag
I am NOT against killing it, I just am looking past this copperhead and thinking the OP needs to have more layers of plan to keep her kids safe because there will be more of the darn things in the vicinity of the barn. I don't think anyone here was saying or implying the copperhead was more important than the kids, just making suggestions on how else to handle the situation since the OP seemed to be asking "was this the right answer?" and "what do I do next time?" My reply looked back to my dad, my model for what a good parent is, and what he did.
xreinx
New member
your not, but others are.
theres nothing you can really do beyond this.. is there? plan ahead is a fine Idea, and everyone does that everywhere.. or trys too.. but the main thing is, you will always have a hoe or Shovel near at hand.
as grandma said, "plan ahead, but live in the moment, even the best intentions can go awry at the last second, the best you can do is make sure your family is safe, and hope those that arent within your sight are smart enough to come quickly if you call. keep your wits about you and prepare for the worse, and hope for the best, life is rocky and the most you can do is put on your best set of running shoes."
the broom and trashbin may not always be right there, and will the snake Really sit still long enough for someone to come and Take it away?
your problem is your own unless someone makes it theirs too, and I think a poisness snake is a big problem. unless you do what my relations ancesters useto do down in the states, and walk around your house and barn with a sweaty shirt draging on the ground to keep the rodents from entering, hence snakes fallowing them.
the most you can do is just.. keep on living, and a weapon close at hand to protect you and yours...
theres nothing you can really do beyond this.. is there? plan ahead is a fine Idea, and everyone does that everywhere.. or trys too.. but the main thing is, you will always have a hoe or Shovel near at hand.
as grandma said, "plan ahead, but live in the moment, even the best intentions can go awry at the last second, the best you can do is make sure your family is safe, and hope those that arent within your sight are smart enough to come quickly if you call. keep your wits about you and prepare for the worse, and hope for the best, life is rocky and the most you can do is put on your best set of running shoes."
the broom and trashbin may not always be right there, and will the snake Really sit still long enough for someone to come and Take it away?
your problem is your own unless someone makes it theirs too, and I think a poisness snake is a big problem. unless you do what my relations ancesters useto do down in the states, and walk around your house and barn with a sweaty shirt draging on the ground to keep the rodents from entering, hence snakes fallowing them.
the most you can do is just.. keep on living, and a weapon close at hand to protect you and yours...
wstphal
working in the Gulag
Actually, you gotta plan ahead for the hoe or shovel unless you're in your barn, garage, toolshed, that type of place.
Sounds like your grandma was a wise woman! Or maybe a wisewoman, or both.
This is also true, although my father kept them readily at hand in the garage as part of his preparations, and yes, they all did just sit there except for a couple that slithered OUT of the yard while he went to the garage to get them. The garage was also where the hoe & shovel were, so that would have come out exactly the same if he had gone for the hoe. (He DID say he thought a hoe was the best long-handled tool for the job if you did have to kill one, BTW.)
That is really, really smart, and maybe not a half bad idea for those who have barns these days!
This is pretty much true of a lot of dangers we face. Keep on living, be prepared to do the right thing, whether that's evacuate, take shelter, or use a weapon. People need plans, skills and tools for all 3, and the judgment to know which one is the right one for the situation and the commitment to follow through 100% on whichever is the right one.