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The Cultivars (morphs)/Genetics Issues Discussions about genetics issues and/or the various cultivars for cornsnakes commercially available. |
Calling the TESSERA EXPERTS!
08-10-2013, 07:45 PM
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#51
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Thanks, Nanci . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanci
Anyone who is familiar with cellular automaton as it pertains to pattern formation is aware that the entire animal kingdom displays the same similar patterns, so it shouldn't be surprising at all that various snake species will display similar patterns.
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Exactly my point. To say that because this phenotype (ergo, mutation) exists in California Kings and therefore makes California Kings the hybrid-originating species is sheer speculation (in the absence of DNA evidence). A few people thought perhaps I made the first Tesseras by using a Leopard Rat Snake mutant. They exist in the U.S, but I've never owned one and between KJ, Graham, and me, we can prove we got the first ones from a guy who sold a reverse trio to Graham. I'm just pointing out to perhaps a new batch of forum participants that when they hear/read that some people think the Tessera mutation was borrowed from California Kings (that they are therefore Jungle Corns), there is no evidence to that effect at this time. Anything's possible, but we should all insist on facts, instead of unsubstantiated guesses.
I also wanted to show how cool those E.situla are. Stunning mutants, AND so much like corns.
Don
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08-10-2013, 07:51 PM
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#52
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It's a plausible theory
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell Mulks
Don, I read Joe's postings regarding the striping in tesseras as follows:
1. The dominant CA king stripe gene creates the classic "tessera" pattern.
2. Both the motley and corn snake "striped" genes create a non-tessalated tessera (i.e., lateral flanks devoid of tessalation).
A. What we have been calling tessera stripes are in fact motley/stripe genetically.
B. True tessera stripes highly resemble vanishing stripes with virtually no head patterning.
*You can't have a tessera without the CA king stripe gene, but a tessera can exist without the corn motley/stripe gene
I think that's what Joe was indicating.
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Naturally, the next step is proving his theory, and the only way to do that is to breed those Striped Cal Kings to suspected Striped Tesseras. Of course, there must also be a control group of several different normal corns and mutants.
Let's get some volunteers to make it happen (with full documentation - including images). Until such trials are evaluated (lots of them), there is no proof that Tesseras are hybrids? Do they SMACK of hybrid genetic mechanics? They sure do, but as they say in court, they are innocent until proven guilty. lol
Thanks, Mitch.
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08-10-2013, 08:17 PM
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#53
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Don, I'm way ahead of you on this one! Haha. I already have two wild-caught male corns (from very isolated areas) that I'll be pairing to two striped desert CA kings.
I will hold back tessera-like corns that inherent their pattern in a dominant fashion. Those F1's will be crossed back to pure wild-caught corns. The most tessera-like progeny will again be held back...and so on.
I estimate it will take no more than four generations to produce a snake identical to what we consider a tessera to be. Furthermore, I expect the non-tessera hatchlings to look like pure corns at that point.
Will this prove the tessera in our collections today are CA king x corn hybrids? Not at all! But what it will do is make us seriously consider that that could be the origin of our beloved tesseras. Occam's Razor would support that theory; seeing as how hobbyists have been tooling with jungle corns for decades now.
Every hatchling ever produced in this breeding experiment will be shared visually with the public, while all progeny will eventually be destroyed; holdback or not.
Don, because of shared ancestry, I don't think breeding a tessera to a CA king would make anything any more clear. If from that pairing we produced tessera-like progeny, yes, it could be because they are really hybrids...or it could just be the result of having the same gene because of shared ancestry.
I feel if I were able to identically replicate the hybrid event that theoretically created tesseras, that that would best help answer if they stem from hybrid origin or not.
Either way, it'll be fun and cool. Isn't this kind of madness why we all play the amateur geneticist mad scientist anyways?
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08-10-2013, 08:28 PM
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#54
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Quote:
Chip In one of the past "Tessera must = hybrid" thread, someone tried to post jungles (corn/king hybrids) and pure corns, and most of us were able to pick the getula crosses every time. I can say it no better now than I did then: http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/sho...&postcount=108
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Chip, I don't feel two generations were enough...but while you can absolutely still see king influence you also very much see the beginning of a tessera-like morph. Things take time.
While I have no horse in this race I find tesseras gorgeous and their mysterious origins exciting. I choose to accept in those photos you've provided a link to that there are Kingsnake markers in all the hatchlings...but I'd be willingly obtuse if I didn't equally admit that they were on the track to becoming "tesseras".
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08-10-2013, 08:32 PM
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#55
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But, to the original poster...what a fantastic dilemma you face, as both hatchlings are simply gorgeous!
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08-10-2013, 09:09 PM
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#56
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I agree, Mitch . . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitchell Mulks
Don, I'm way ahead of you on this one! Haha. I already have two wild-caught male corns (from very isolated areas) that I'll be pairing to two striped desert CA kings.
I will hold back tessera-like corns that inherent their pattern in a dominant fashion. Those F1's will be crossed back to pure wild-caught corns. The most tessera-like progeny will again be held back...and so on.
I estimate it will take no more than four generations to produce a snake identical to what we consider a tessera to be. Furthermore, I expect the non-tessera hatchlings to look like pure corns at that point.
Will this prove the tessera in our collections today are CA king x corn hybrids? Not at all! But what it will do is make us seriously consider that that could be the origin of our beloved tesseras. Occam's Razor would support that theory; seeing as how hobbyists have been tooling with jungle corns for decades now.
Every hatchling ever produced in this breeding experiment will be shared visually with the public, while all progeny will eventually be destroyed; holdback or not.
Don, because of shared ancestry, I don't think breeding a tessera to a CA king would make anything any more clear. If from that pairing we produced tessera-like progeny, yes, it could be because they are really hybrids...or it could just be the result of having the same gene because of shared ancestry.
I feel if I were able to identically replicate the hybrid event that theoretically created tesseras, that that would best help answer if they stem from hybrid origin or not.
Either way, it'll be fun and cool. Isn't this kind of madness why we all play the amateur geneticist mad scientist anyways?
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. . . that your project inventory should satisfy most people (one way or the other). BTW, I know there are localities of Cal Kings that look like non-Striped Tesseras, but you're telling me that even though we've never caught a Tessera-looking Cal King where the Striped Desert cal Kings are, you'll see Tesseras? I'm probably misunderstanding what you said. I'm good at that lately. lol.
Sounds like the collateral non-Tesseras will have perhaps the loudest voice in this project. Don't you think?
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08-11-2013, 12:04 AM
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#57
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OP... Looks like your call was answered. My head is spinning. I'm interested! I just cant follow. I think I'm going to have to reread a few more times before I catch up.
*Edit* I think I get the jist of it now! Cool stuff. I Find it interesting but when it comes to breeding, I could care less WHERE the gene actually comes from, I am just glad it is here.
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08-11-2013, 11:29 AM
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#58
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Tessera Improvement Theory
Some of you may not have seen this, so I thought I would post a link so it is completely out in the open. It was first posted on Facebook. All peer review is welcome, and opposing opinions will be respected.
Tessera Improvement Theory
http://www..com/forum/showthread.php?t=10946
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08-11-2013, 11:34 AM
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#59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecreipeoj
Some of you may not have seen this, so I thought I would post a link so it is completely out in the open. It was first posted on Facebook. All peer review is welcome, and opposing opinions will be respected.
Tessera Improvement Theory
http://www..com/forum/showthread.php?t=10946
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Hey Joe,
Just a FYI, if this is a link from your personal forum over on the "other" corn snake site, Rich has his site set up to where any links to that site trying to be posted are blocked.
I'm sure you didn't know. I found out a while back as well trying to do so and simply not knowing about the block.
Walter
BOUT' CORNS !!
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08-11-2013, 11:35 AM
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#60
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Tessera het Striped Lava
I bought a Tessera het Striped Lava from Tom, because I like the pheno of his Tessera. It is either het for Striped OR Motley. Now that I know, all I have to do is breed it to a Motley instead of a Striped and more Motley Tessera will be produced than if I bred it to a Striped.
I will also breed him to a Striped Lava just to see if he is het for Striped or Motley, but the breedings to a Lava Motley or Ice Motley will be most interesting.
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